TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hello.

CLIENT: Hi. (long pause)

[00:01:54]

I’m still bothered by not asking that girl out on the bus when I had the opportunity. On the bus again, I mean, we just didn’t she was talking on the cell phone, so it was like a missed connection. (pause)

THERAPIST: There was a chance after the one that you described last week.

CLIENT: There was a chance of something, yeah. I don’t find her very interesting. It’s just I should have a deep relationship with someone in my life, I guess. My friend pointed out I mean, I had a what else happened? Every time I go to class, I feel like girls are kind of coming at me and I just even like moths to a flame, but I sort of botch my opportunities in some way.

[00:03:01]

There was a girl at class this Tuesday who I thought was like 19 but she’s 23. She was wearing they have this new style of stockings. It’s not like fishnets but they have these patterned designs. She had this like see-through blouse and stuff. And so I mean maybe it’s that she doesn’t say anything and that she’s dressed kind of seductively, that I just perceive her as sort of a sexual object or objective. But, I mean, she came up to me after class and said “Are you waiting here long? Where are you going?” and that kind of stuff. She wanted me to tell her about her work and what I thought of her work and this kind of stuff.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I frightened her off. I didn’t know what to say about her work. I asked about her age. I started smoking a cigar (chuckles) because that is what I had planned to do after class.

[00:04:11]

THERAPIST: And she wanted to know your she was interested in your opinion of her work?

CLIENT: Ostensibly, yeah. But to me, that’s just a gateway to something else. (pause) [There was an opportunity there].

THERAPIST: Sure, yeah.

CLIENT: I mean, we agreed to meet next week but it was just I said “When and where?” and she said “Oh, let’s figure it out next week.”

THERAPIST: Oh, uh huh.

CLIENT: So to me, that’s just “No.” It’s not going to happen. I mean, it could [but to me, it’s probably not going to happen].

THERAPIST: How did you feel when she approached you?

CLIENT: It was good because I was just waiting there, hoping for something like that to happen. Also the professor was there and he’d seen me walk off with the other hottest girl in the class the week before.

[00:05:13]

And so I felt kind of proud that, you know, I walked out with one and then the other. The other one I had taken from him. They were talking. This girl looks like [] and they were talking, very thoughtful, [almost neurotic], serious. Blonde, blue eyes, pretty. [I might be getting old though]. But they were talking and I sort of approached her and I don’t know if they were talking about class or who knows what they were talking about but I walked out with her. So I felt this validation thing where I feel some cheap validation at being perceived as some sort of womanizer or something.

THERAPIST: But that you can kind of that you’ve got some like influence, power.

[00:06:10]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: That he would see too, that he would recognize in you.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I mean, the awful truth is that I’m terribly inept. Well, apparently not terribly. (chuckles) (inaudible at 00:06:28).

THERAPIST: Yeah, well something though it’s kind of like there’s this kind of ability that you’re finding about attracting, appealing, finding women that are interested and then something turns. Something turns for you. I mean, because the whole yeah, something leaves you feeling like I mean, I guess that’s why I was asking like what happened with that girl when she approached you.

[00:07:04]

It sounds like you liked it. You did something evidently to attract her interest, but then something kind of you describe it like something then comes undone almost. (pause) What happens? Like the woman with the stockings. What kind of followed from there?

CLIENT: (pause) I mean, it’s kind of a theory, but what actually happened is during class we were supposed to review her work. We didn’t get to because she submitted it very late, and so the professor just said “We’ll review this later. I can only look at the other submission.” But I had spent the 10 minutes before class sort of looking at it in the library and making corrections and then I gave it to her in class.

[00:08:07]

And so (pause) Yeah, so she I was leaning on the door that was going to exit the building, sort of waiting for something to happen. The professor came and started talking to me. She came and she said “Oh, are you going to be leaving soon?” and I said “Yeah.” Or she came up to me and she walked so I’m leaning like this on the door. She walks around me like this and then she kind of walks back and she’s like “Oh, I’m sorry.” It just didn’t make much sense what she was doing in terms of leaving or coming or going. She says “Are you going to be waiting here long?” and then I said I don’t know, I just followed her, I guess, and went outside. Then I got outside and the professor leaves and she plants herself and starts holding her books or whatever like this, and starts asking me what I think about her work. She’s facing me.

[00:09:03]

And then I start getting us walking because I want it to lead somewhere. I want it to lead. I imagine she lives nearby or she has a room or something, so I say “Where are you going?” But she’s following me is the thing. I’m in front of her by a quarter pace. I’m just saying “Where are you going?” and she says “Oh, my car is in that direction” so we start going in that direction. I’m taking out a cigar just because I planned to have the cigar after class because I needed to use it. I don’t know. I thought it might impress her a little bit too, I guess. So I was just -

THERAPIST: But you were feeling kind of pretty good about, like “Hey, I’ve got her walking. We’re walking.”

CLIENT: Yeah, so walking, walking. But she’s asking me about her thing. I said “Well, I could bullshit you, but really I need to think about it for a few minutes.” I asked where she lives.

[00:09:59]

I’m getting like a lot of information very quickly. I’m sort of walking slowly. I think she just wants to stand there and talk, but I was sort of but she was willing to follow me walking.

THERAPIST: Were you wanting to go back to her place? Was that the idea?

CLIENT: I was. I said like “Well, do you want to go to Starbucks?” because that’s right across the street. “Want to go to Starbucks and talk about it?” She said “No, I have to meet some friends but how about next week?” or something like that. So I said I think this is how it went. And we’re sort of walking [on our way there]. So she said or I said “Are you old enough to drink?” and she said “Yes.” (chuckles)

[00:10:56]

So we just started talking about her age. I thought she was like 19 but she’s 23. [That sort of nonsense]. (pause) But I mean I -

THERAPIST: Then what happened?

CLIENT: Then what happened, we go out of the gate.

THERAPIST: How do you feel at this point, by the way?

CLIENT: How am I feeling? I’m sort of finding my way. I mean, I think she’s expecting from me some stability. I think women expect some sort of stability yeah, maturity and stability but I’m sort of groping at how to carry this, like where to carry it. What to do with it. Because if we don’t stop somewhere to talk or if we don’t find some common ground but I can’t talk about her work because it’s pretty crappy.

[00:12:05]

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: At least not without some hard thinking. (laughter)

THERAPIST: “I need some time to be able to bullshit you.” (laughter)

CLIENT: [Yeah, there was a concept there].

THERAPIST: [In her writing]?

CLIENT: [In her writing, yeah].

THERAPIST: Yeah, okay.

CLIENT: I mean, I said (inaudible at 00:12:37). But at the gate, she just said “Okay, well, see you next week” and I said “So where and when do you want to meet?” She said “Oh, well, we’ll figure it out next week.” I’m there trying to wipe my cigar because it’s not lighting up. [And that’s how it goes].

THERAPIST: What were you feeling when you asked her that? Like what did she -

CLIENT: Next week?

THERAPIST: Yeah, when like she goes you know, she’s obviously taking off at this point. I get the sense that you’re like, there’s some urgency you felt.

[00:13:05]

CLIENT: Oh absolutely, yeah. I mean, it’s like a small panic because it’s not it’s done, it’s finished.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: “Next week” means “No.” Next week means nothing.

THERAPIST: Right, you don’t have anything really tangible to walk away with, yeah. It’s kind of yeah, right, it’s nothing.

CLIENT: “Next week” means I blew it or something.

THERAPIST: Oh, you blew it.

CLIENT: Yeah. It’s not like that’s very visible to anyone, but that’s how I’m feeling.

THERAPIST: Yeah, okay, okay. What makes you think you blew it?

CLIENT: (pause) We didn’t meet. We didn’t (pause) It’s like planes passing in the night. I mean, there was no common ground.

THERAPIST: Yep.

[00:13:57]

CLIENT: We didn’t have sex. We didn’t even go out to have anything to eat. So, I mean, you have to imagine too, during class I’m visualizing what I’m going to do to this girl and how it’s going to happen, because I sat next to her.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. What were you tell me.

CLIENT: I think she’d suck a good dick.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: She was dressed for it. So, I mean, when I started actually going I mean, she approached me. I’m trying to [par] what I’d been thinking about.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: But it doesn’t actually come. (chuckles) It doesn’t come to fruition. It was harder I guess because I had already it was harder to deal with what I had because I was expecting something that takes a lot of steps to get to.

[00:15:00]

THERAPIST: I think what it seems like you’re after is a feeling of that feeling that we’ve been talking about of really wanting, in a sense a woman is interested, wants a response to you, some feeling of you know, to put it kind of in a psychological term, like potency. You really want to feel like “Alright, I’ve got something this woman wants.”

What I’m thinking of, it sort of sounds to me like what happens is you go “This is what would make me feel that way.” This thing that you imagine is the way you would feel that way. Including, I’m sure, the erotic, the pleasurable elements of oral sex, a blow job and everything. But it sounds like it has a lot to do instead with like “This is how I’ll feel, like I’ve had some kind of I’ve attracted a woman and she feels like I’m this appealing guy.

[00:16:09]

It sounds to me like when it doesn’t come to fruition, you feel like you’ve got nothing. “I don’t have anything” and it kind of almost feels like “I’ve got to have it that way. That’s the way I’m going to know I feel potent.”

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: If it doesn’t, you feel “I don’t feel potent at all.”

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Although what I’ll say is that it sounds to me like there are steps and increments where you do feel like “Yeah, she seems to be interested in me” and you are getting that kind of feeling.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: You know, it’s like “She came up to me after class and that felt good.”

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: But it can kind of dissolve when she’s like “Next week.”

CLIENT: Oh, well, yeah.

[00:16:56]

THERAPIST: And I think that’s why you’re like “I don’t want this series of steps. I need it now.”

[00:17:05]

CLIENT: Well, I can’t ever it has to go all the way.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: In one night, because I can’t ever trust anything coming through next week or staying or anything.

THERAPIST: That’s right. It doesn’t stay.

CLIENT: Yeah, but my friend pointed out that you know “Once you get to that physical situation, you’ve been feeling ambivalent anyway, so is that what you really want?” I mean, is the whole sexual thing what I actually want? Because the other girl I was with -

THERAPIST: The woman where you went to her place and played the guitar?

CLIENT: I don’t know if I was attracted to her though. There was some sort of stiffness about her.

THERAPIST: That’s right.

CLIENT: But my friend had a point. I mean, “Is it really what you want, the physical thing?”

[00:18:00]

THERAPIST: I think that’s a good question.

CLIENT: It’s more like a challenge, I guess.

THERAPIST: It’s a specific kind of challenge too, though. Like a woman being interested and drawn to you. I think -

CLIENT: That’s probably it, yeah. I was thinking intimacy. I read this good thing -

THERAPIST: Intimacy.

CLIENT: It was just perfect. This writer actually nailed it in a single sentence, and it’s just some person writing on the Internet but it was like what was it? (long pause)

[00:19:05]

I guess I don’t know. (pause) It said basically the overuse of porn is bad when either you’re something. I forget the first option. You know, you can’t cultivate intimacy with actual human beings, which I think is about right. But I think you make a good point that it has to be a woman wanting me. She has to be always wanting me, all the time.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And that’s it. When she wants something from me or I’m supposed to (pause)

[00:20:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (pause) When she wants something from me that I don’t think I have or I want to give (inaudible at 00:20:13).

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: [It comes to like] my mother eating. I was always disgusted by my mother eating. (pause)

THERAPIST: How so?

CLIENT: That’s just it. I see her eating. It’s like I don’t know, a lot of times I don’t notice, I guess. But there are occasions when she would be eating and she’s just irritating. Really irritating.

THERAPIST: She would be gobbling.

CLIENT: This past weekend too. It was my father’s birthday and I went there for that. I know that’s important [to refer to the gobbling] (chuckles).

[00:21:04]

THERAPIST: You know I really want to get into gobbling.

CLIENT: Right. I went home for my father’s birthday. My sister was there. I found out my father had said like back before I was born and this just came up casually but my parents used to live in Ballston and my father said to a landlord there “Yeah, so this looks good.” He was looking at a place that he was going to rent. The landlord saw my mother and he asked “Who is this?” and my father said “This is my concubine.” That was my mother. I never knew that. But I couldn’t even have imagined that. But that’s something I could imagine myself saying maybe two years ago. I just had a very honest way.

[00:22:01]

Now I’m sort of smooth like a stone. I don’t notice truthful or abrasive (pause) And also women don’t respond that well to that, not with me at least. I’ve sort of built up my fear of failure. I think before I wasn’t really I didn’t have my (inaudible at 00:22:24) to the ground and I could still maintain the convention that I could do anything and speak exactly as I wanted to without any consequence or any negative consequence. But now I’m much more careful, especially with women. (pause)

[00:23:00]

At work, this guy called me weird. I mean, he said “Brandon, I see you outside in the parking lot sometimes talking to yourself.” I said quickly back “Well, that’s the only time I have to rehearse.” Then he said “Well, I think you’re weird” and I said “Well, everybody is weird.” He said “Well, you’re weird with a capital W.” I said “I’ll take that.” But it wasn’t long ago that I was offended by I still [have reason to be offended] by being called weird. It’s like a word from someone who doesn’t understand.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: Like an idiot calling a conversation awkward or a situation awkward just because they can.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But in this case, it could have an effect on me professionally because I don’t think other people understand me (inaudible 00:23:59). (pause)

[00:24:09]

The boss, he’s kind of temperamental. I don’t even know if I’ve taken care of a customer in the past week. I’m sort of like I’m just on the windowsill. It’s amazing. I mean, the sales sort of politics should benefit me. I mean, it treats people who have skill, it treats them well and there’s no shame in it. But I haven’t been treated well. Somewhere I’ve gotten the reputation of not being able to sell something. So I don’t get a chance to talk to people. I mean, all the people go through the person who is supposedly the best salesman, [not this other] idiot who works for the union who is supposedly the second-best salesman.

[00:25:10]

And even though calling me weird is probably higher on the totem pole which is bizarre. But someone told me they know I’m going to be a top-notch salesman, but it’s really hard because I can’t hone my skills. I’m sort of just sitting there. I can’t get better because I’m not practicing with anyone.

THERAPIST: Mmmm-hmmm.

CLIENT: (pause) When my mother was eating, I mean, it would be very specific things like spaghetti or submarines. It was just the way she would eat so ravenously and chew that would bother me.

[00:26:00]

I think she was probably usually pretty careful, but I’ve been bothered by it for a year or two. I don’t know. (pause)

THERAPIST: Well, I guess you said something about the work is that I think too you’re wanting to, you know, also feel like you can do it. That these guys you know, instead of it being female-focused but that the men will believe in you or at least this general manager will see in you something and make you feel professional. Or that you want to feel good at what you’re doing.

CLIENT: Oh, absolutely.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

[00:26:58]

CLIENT: I’m not used to that. I have to be the best at what I’m doing. I’m not and I’m not able to be and what it is, it’s discrimination. It’s outright discrimination.

THERAPIST: What? Age?

CLIENT: No, in terms of -

THERAPIST: Weirdness?

CLIENT: No, not at all. It’s who they think can make them the most money. And so if I think you can make the most money, then you get treated well. I mean, you can do what you want. The rules sort of bend to meet your needs. I mean, I’m sort of iced. I’m pedaled along with lies or half-promises. Or not half-promises, full promises, but they’re not fulfilled.

THERAPIST: Yeah, you have to play by the rules the other guys develop.

CLIENT: Yeah, no absolutely. It’s entirely unfair.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

[00:28:03]

CLIENT: I mean, we started out just anybody it’s supposed to be an open system where you approach you see a customer, if you’re the first to approach somebody, they’re your customer. And now it’s like where I see customers and they go to someone else. They won’t let me go out and get the customer. If I go out and get the customer, they’ll take me off the customer and put another salesman on it.

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah. I actually received an express promise from Irish Man that he wouldn’t do that anymore. I had to walk around and do this other bullshit just to prove I could do it. He said “Okay, now you can. I’ll never do that again.” But it’s been done again. I mean, I need the money and I know I would do well. But I also took it personally because I’m always stretching every single customer. I mean, he could see that I was sort of hurt when someone would say no.

[00:29:00]

I mean, I would take someone who was in service for an oil change and get them to commit to buy a car if only they these people lived in Delaware so their trade-in was in Delaware. But I mean, they would have bought it. They said if we could get the trade-in and if we could do this, they would buy a car. But they were just in for an oil change.

So I’m stretching every single customer. If someone is coming by in a truck and actually just racing by looking at the vehicles, I’ll get them as far as inside, get his personal information and then see him out. But I’ll feel bad that he goes out, even though it’s not even possible, that there’s no legitimate chance. Just because as I understood it, you always have to think that everyone is there to buy a vehicle.

THERAPIST: Yeah, wow. It’s so much like the girl in the class in a certain way.

CLIENT: How so?

[00:29:54]

THERAPIST: Well, it’s like “I’ve got to get the blow job.” It’s almost like this really challenging proposition. “I want to go home with her, I want to seduce her in this time and if it’s not, it feels like I lost it. I didn’t do it.”

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And it kind of like washes away, I’ll bet, a lot of good feeling about like “I got his info when he was just trying to race by looking at stuff.” It’s sort of like “Wow, I got him that far” but that is kind of washed away once he leaves.

CLIENT: Yeah. No, you’re right. There’s no pleasure in good indicators. I mean, there’s the goal and you fall short.

[00:30:51]

THERAPIST: When there really is some kind of there’s some real progress, I mean, to be able to get someone I mean, like that is I imagine a building block, both for a relationship and for sales to be able to go from that, get him from not even thinking about it to really considering.

CLIENT: What’s different with the girl though is I’m always watching the body language, and the fact is that she was expecting me to lead. And I was sort of I was asking her what she was doing, what her plans were.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I wasn’t secure in it. I mean, instead of asking “Do you want to go to Starbucks?” I should have started walking across the street and said “Well, let’s go to Starbucks.” There’s a sort of struggle about this that I shouldn’t be having. [“Shouldn’t” isn’t the right word, but ]

[00:31:57]

THERAPIST: What is the struggle though that at that point you sort of stop yourself or something?

CLIENT: I mean, it’s thinking through the (pause) It’s the getting through different options when you should just be sort of marching. It’s like “do” or “do not,” there is no “try.”

THERAPIST: I think you get ambivalent.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I think you get ambivalent.

CLIENT: Not with the girl though. I don’t think so. I definitely do at later stages. But I guess options open up and I don’t know exactly what to do. Are we going to her car? Are we going to her room? Oh, she doesn’t live here, so what do I do know?

THERAPIST: Did you know what you wanted to do?

CLIENT: At the point when she actually approached me, it’s just a good sign.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Getting to know her would be alright, I guess. And I checked her. She has like a website. I checked her website. She’s like a legitimate person. She’s not just a slut or something. I mean, she does like advertising work. She writes the whatever in advertising.

[00:33:17]

THERAPIST: Writes copy?

CLIENT: Copy, yeah for TV ads. She does (inaudible at 00:33:22) that kind of stuff. (pause) Yeah, but I’m constantly thinking like “Okay, what are we going to do at this moment that I’m talking to her? You know, Starbucks? Go out for a drink?” [Should’ve gone out for a drink, probably].

THERAPIST: See, that’s where some sort of question something comes up at those moments where you shift from feeling like “I’m leading, I’m leading,” then you reach some sort of point and you start to think about options.

[00:34:07]

But some new feeling kind of enters into the mix. I don’t know what it is exactly. (pause) And I was wondering too, did you want her to respond? Did you want her to respond in some way at that point?

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess so. (pause) That’s just it, isn’t it? I mean, I’m seeking that nurturing maybe I’ve drank too much of your Kool-aid already.

THERAPIST: (laughter)

CLIENT: I’m seeking that instead of nurturing breast or whatever. When I asked “Do you want to go to Starbucks?” what I’m saying is “Am I okay? How am I doing?”

THERAPIST: I think so.

CLIENT: Because if I knew what I wanted, I would’ve just said “Alright, let’s go to dinner.”

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But instead what I’m actually seeking is some sort of validation, constantly.

[00:35:06]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I mean it is another facet of what you want.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It’s not just about the blow job.

CLIENT: Right. (pause)

THERAPIST: Or the influence that gets you to the blow job, you know.

CLIENT: (pause) Wait, what was that? It’s what I want? Influence?

THERAPIST: It’s not just the influence. It’s not only just to exert the influence and for her to see her as kind of to really kind of be interested in you. Masculinity, male, that kind of realm of it that’s important.

[00:36:07]

Yeah, sure. Something else enters the mix about what does she want to give me? Nurturance, whatever. Something about, does she want to go to Starbucks though with me? Not just it’s a different realm than being the influencer.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: That you started to want as well.

CLIENT: Oh yeah. Yeah, she asked what I did too and I just said “I sell cars” [] (pause) Yeah, I’m at work and I mean, I do what I’m told. Sometimes it’s just contradictory now. I’m a low-level employee and I do things without thinking about them, and then I get in trouble because the things didn’t make sense.

[00:37:00]

I mean, I just did what I was told but I’m sort of taking the flack for it. I get contradictory orders and things. (pause) I should be in a better situation. But I don’t feel that confidence that I know what to do with a customer.

THERAPIST: There’s a link here though with a customer and the girl, you think?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Well, what do you do with a customer?

CLIENT: (pause) I don’t know where to guide them. I don’t know that I want to sell them a car, I guess. (chuckles) Or that they want to buy a car, more importantly. I don’t know.

[00:38:02]

I see them. I don’t know how to get them from where they start to where they should finish. The only people I’ve gotten are people who know what kind of car they want. I haven’t been at all good with people who aren’t sure what they want. If someone comes in and they know basically what they want and they pick it out, then I sell it to them. Otherwise, I don’t -

The other thing is I got home from work. I’m living with a refugee. We have I invited him out to dinner because I wanted to normalize him into our society or something. He’s kind of crazy. I mean, he reminds me of myself a long time ago. Everything he does, to him, represents like the image of home, his (inaudible at 00:38:52). And he’s concerned that if he behaves this way or that way, it will poorly reflect on himself.

[00:39:00]

He’s like, you know, physically affected if he makes a bad impression. He’s also incredibly confident, by contrast. So like you don’t realize what kind of world he comes from until he goes to Target and he says something like “Wow. This is bigger than the largest store in my country by ten times.” He doesn’t know how to use a can opener or things like that.

But I invited him out and we talked a bunch and flashes of who he really is sort of shine through. I mean, he’s someone who looks at a situation and sees what’s better, what’s better than this. Then he’s absolutely convinced that what’s better is what he wants. Then he struggles for what’s better using whatever means he can. Then he gets there. Better, you know. “Shit, good.” Just very clear distinctions between what you want, what you don’t want.

[00:40:00]

He ended up paying for half the meal though. I was going to cover it, but he paid for half the meal. I felt kind of conflicted. I said “No, that’s okay” and he said “No, please” and I said “Really, it’s okay” and he said “Please take the money.” He actually offered more than half what the bill was. He didn’t see the bill because they gave the bill to me. It was like $54 and he gave me $40. (pause) So I gave him 10 back, so I still covered more than half because with a $10 tip it was $64-something, so he paid 30. He’s from fucking Africa and he’s telling me about how he’s on the buses, like worrying about paying $2 extra for going this way and $2 extra going that way. [And I’ve been there too].

[00:40:55]

I mean, my situation isn’t that good, but still. I mean, I had a negative balance yesterday. But I at least know (inaudible at 00:41:09). (pause) But I can understand that. I mean, if someone wants to be treated as an equal, you should do that. You shouldn’t coddle them and say “I’ll pay for you” or whatever. So I thought that was good. It was good.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: The waitress was great, one of the best waitresses I’ve had. But then this other lady, she asked me there was soy sauce and they were cleaning up because it was the end of the night. So she asked me for the soy sauce.

[00:41:56]

They have this weird thing. It looks like a ceramic cylinder and then there’s like a spout on the end that looks like a handle. So I just moved the things towards me and the soy sauce spilled on my shirt. So, I mean, a $10 tip for $50 is good. It’s perfect, actually. But I still felt like guilty or something.

THERAPIST: About?

CLIENT: Well, like I might’ve given more. I expected the meal to cost $80 but it cost $50. (pause) Yeah, I felt bad because I didn’t give more of a tip. I felt righteous too to make that guilt but you know, I spilled soy sauce. I had to pour lemon juice all over it.

THERAPIST: Oh, she did it?

CLIENT: Well, she asked me to move it and I moved it.

THERAPIST: Oh, I got it. When you moved it to help out, you spilled it on yourself. I got it.

CLIENT: Yeah, and we were still talking. She was just like “Excuse me” and she breaks into the conversation. It wasn’t even the waitress, it was someone else.

THERAPIST: Oh.

[00:43:04]

CLIENT: But just because of that, I couldn’t give a full tip. It was just terrible. It really affected the whole conversation too. We were getting really involved and then I worried about my shirt. Soy sauce doesn’t come out easily.

THERAPIST: Uh huh. Yeah, but then you it affected your idea about the tip then.

CLIENT: Yeah. The thing I guess I want to talk about though is the “weird.” I mean, I feel distinctive and I’ve always felt distinctive in a distinction is good to me. And to be called “weird” by somebody, it sort of puts that distinctiveness in some sort of crippled light.

THERAPIST: I think that’s how you experience it sometimes, yeah. Is this kind of distinctiveness about me how do people see it? How do people react to it?

[00:44:06]

You know, from a co-worker to a woman. And I think that’s the element of the to use the idea of intimacy. Like, yeah, you want to have the influence and want to feel, you know, like you’re doing something. That kind of potency I’ve been talking about. But I think you’re also there’s this other level that comes into it about “What’s the woman see in me?” Beyond that element of influence and maleness or whatever, you know, which is important. But also “What does this woman really see?”

[00:44:56]

CLIENT: Hmmm.

THERAPIST: What do you see in her?

CLIENT: (pause) I think I’m afraid to ask that question too. “What do you see in me?” (long pause)

THERAPIST: Are you looking up that quote?

CLIENT: No, I’m writing down “What does she see in me?”

[00:46:03]

THERAPIST: I think that’s where I think that what she wanted to do you know, that kind of crossroads you were at, had something to do with that. You know, you having influence, influence, and then at a certain point going “Okay, now I want to see what she this other level of interaction between us.” This other register of the discourse between you too. “Yeah, okay, I feel I’m having influence over her, I feel like things are going my way.” Now you stop and go “Well, what does she really want? What does she see? What is she really when I stop influencing.”

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