TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Sorry about that.

CLIENT: That's okay.

(pause from [00:00:05] to [00:00:49]

CLIENT: Do you have any quarters?

THERAPIST: (chuckle) I don't. (laughter) Parking or?

CLIENT: Yeah

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) Quarters, are on, quarters are on your mind.

CLIENT: I got problems. (laughter)

(Laughter)

(pause from [00:01:17] to [00:05:22]

THERAPIST: So where have you been, where you been at? Where you been?

CLIENT: I've spent all day of mine, just, (whispering) at a,

THERAPIST: Just now, or?

CLIENT: Yeah, just now. (pause) I was thinking about, I know I was thinking about the quarters because my car's out there. So probably, there's a pretty good chance I'll get like $45 ticket or something like that. I mean it's, I was thinking how often they cycle around.

THERAPIST: Probably not that often.

CLIENT: Within a hour, they probably wouldn't. I mean, why would they. Because just one ticket would provide for two people walking around. So, I was thinking of that. I have a dollar. But I was also thinking of, not really putting anything out there because, I don't know. Interested to see if you had any coins. (ph)

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: I also considered a joke about, you know whether we would have to pitch a pilot or something to these people. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: (laughter)

CLIENT: There was a review period and then we would get our contract. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: We haven't been, yeah, we are going to be on prime time or not. We haven't been signed for a deal. (pause) Yeah I was thinking too about the money and the quarters and then getting a bill today too. I'll be giving you a bill today for the first time.

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: What did that meant to you.

CLIENT: Well I had the check made out one of these weeks. I thought it would be cool if I still had it in my wallet, because I would just be like, yep. It was for that exact amount too, so. That would have been cool, but I'm okay without it today. [00:07:43] Seeing you.

THERAPIST: Yeah that's fine by the way. I'm assuming you knew that, but it's fine, you don't have to. I usually just ask people, if they can, if they can't then let me know. If they can, if they can have it by the end of the month. I'll usually give them a bill at the beginning of the month for the previous month. Try to get it by the end of the month to me if you can. If you can't, let me know, we'll talk about it. [00:08:24]

CLIENT: There's going to be some serious repercussion so. (laughter) Deconstruct me or something.

THERAPIST: I can what?

CLIENT: Deconstruct me or deconstruct my actions.

THERAPIST: What were you thinking, in terms of what? Because?

CLIENT: I was just thinking about enforcement, like,

THERAPIST: Oh, if (chuckle)

CLIENT: Because you aren't being strict about it. It seems like one that would be prone to be abused, so what would be your recourse if you didn't get payments in terms of co payments. The only threat you could really offer is like, driving someone crazy in a very subtle way. [00:09:11]

THERAPIST: I guess, yeah I guess I could also just ask for it. (chuckle)

CLIENT: So when they listen to this, are they going to, I mean, do they know you? Or I mean do you feel some sort of obligation to, to provide anything to these publishers?

THERAPIST: The publishers? No, I, nothing but who I already am, if that makes sense. And that's making it romantic. Yeah, no, I, they know, they know, I'm, the kind of clinician I am and they were, I they interviewed me on what kind of work I do. And they said it sounds perfect for us. [00:10:12]

CLIENT: I see.

THERAPIST: I think that what they were, what they want is something that reflects what happens, not some sort of made for a tape kind of thing actually. But something that sort of is real. (chuckle) What really happens. And not for it to be by the book, or to be like when two people are in a room together, talking.

CLIENT: Yes, they want real information.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

(pause from [00:10:44] to [00:11:04]

Yeah, but did anything kind of, any kind of stuff, any thoughts or questions, concerns kind of come up in talking about, what it would mean to have you know, the recording in the room? About the way I'd be, the way you would feel?

CLIENT: Yeah, I think it will alter both of us a little bit, in how we speak. But, aside from that, not much.

THERAPIST: Oh good. It is another thing in the room, there's no denying it.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. You should probably like, put it over there or something.

THERAPIST: Would you prefer it, over there?

CLIENT: I think so, yeah.

THERAPIST: Because I put it, would it be okay if I put it on here, so that it's, the one thing if I put it there is that it's, not going to sound good.

(crosstalking)

THERAPIST: Would this be okay?

CLIENT: Yeah that's fine.

THERAPIST: Okay, good. That's, good. (furniture moving) That's a little awkward to have right there.

CLIENT: Well, it's right between us.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:12:21]

CLIENT: But, I had my cousin over last night, what was last night, Monday? No Super Bowl, Super Bowl. He's sort of an engineer. It was good, we watched the Super Bowl for the first half and then the NFL turned the lights off. Then the second half we, we played music over the Super Bowl. It was nice. Kelly has come back, but she kept to herself more or less. (pause) Yeah, my cousin brought some beers, we sort of talked about a day that, I mean we had a lot of cousins on my mother's side, but there were three of us that were about the same age. There were different groupings, two's and three's. Our three musketeers or three stooges or whatever, there was another cousin, but he couldn't come that night. We sort of found out what night he might be able to come, and that's Tuesday, so. [00:13:31]

THERAPIST: What's the cousin's name that was over? (pause) At the Super Bowl Party.

CLIENT: (pause) Yes, we might meet up Tuesday. I don't know why, I just don't want to say.

THERAPIST: Ah, is it because of the tape?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Oh. But you know, how old is he? I just want to kind of get an idea in my mind.

CLIENT: He's 24, 25.

THERAPIST: So there was you, him and then another male cousin who were the three musketeers?

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause from [00:14:14] to [00:14:32]

THERAPIST: What are you noticing right now? What are you

CLIENT: You asked his name. You asked his name, or something. I just wanted to create a problem I guess.

THERAPIST: I don't know, maybe not. Something's problematic about my question.

CLIENT: Sorry?

THERAPIST: Maybe there was a problem about my question.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah, well I guess I could say, it seems to be that psychologist sort of, therapist can't operate by, sort of insinuating that your not as secure with the intimate details of your life. It's almost like a leverage that accumulates over time. It seems to me that I wasn't very suspicious, but part of the impulse I guess is just that, (pause) when you are asking someone's name, its a tool to, be a part of, maybe to better appreciate or navigate the discourse that's going on. But from my (inaudible) twice a year. It can also be a (pause)

THERAPIST: A way into your life more, a way to kind of leverage in. I think that's right. I think that's true of my motive too, now that you are saying that. I think there's, it's a way for me to kind of get more, it helps me kind of get more into your life. A little bit more into your world. [00:16:40]

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause)

THERAPIST: And does it bring up a kind of concern for you though? What, what am I up to? What am I, what's going to happen when I get in, or (chuckle) I mean it certainly, I can't help but imagine that it raises those questions.

(pause from [00:17:17] to [00:17:47])

CLIENT: I had a good meeting at church this Sunday. It was quite convenient.

THERAPIST: It's nice when the friars and lay people are gathered.

CLIENT: (pause) So, just this past Sunday, there's this one girl who kind of like goes to the university. When I started, when I first started a work group to read like, these great tomes of like, Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire, and The Condition of Man, and, what is it? The thing about from Leonardo to Hegel, Western Intellectual Tradition. So like these big picture books, I gathered together, I mean I, well, I wanted to get together a large group of people. But it was such a grand idea, and it was so onerous, really, that it didn't really come off. I'd sensed, that had the reading group worked with just five or six people who are reliable. But when I first did it, I had like grand proclamations about the mission on the group, and I had named it like the Lodestone Reading Group, after like, magnetized metal. But once during sharing, I publicized reading this book by myself, they didn't read it. But she did. (laughter) [00:19:35]

And like, the first meeting, only one person showed up and he had only read the first chapter. I had read most of what I had said we were supposed to read. But she went away to Greece I think, and she had actually read the book. And that was appealing.

THERAPIST: That was what? Appealing?

CLIENT: Appealing. She's also just a good person. And she's, I take it at one point at least impressed in things that were said. It's hard though, when (pause) I think I'm someone who has a sort of aspirational character, and also has the abilities to carry things through. But it's hard for me to distinguish myself in context to the people who are satisfied with themselves. Because I'm, I'm rarely satisfied. Like the time when I saw Tammy dunk (ph) I mean for good reasons in a lot of cases. But this particular Sunday before last, I was thinking if I was talking with this girl, and maybe her boyfriend and some people. But there's this cool guy, I just met, I think he's good. What's his name? Anyway, but the guy is just comfortable. And you can, I mean I'm there, and I'm the hub of the network of the people meeting. But the, I don't know. It's a hard thing when someone's attention transfers from you to someone else. [00:21:36]

And I, I wish sometimes I hadn't picked up knowledge of body language. Because I'm thinking about it constantly.

THERAPIST: You normally see shifts in attention.

CLIENT: Yes. (pause) [inaudible] I mean what a cool name. He's just like a white guy named [inaudible]. I don't know. My friend in college was very similar to him so I can like, have a quick grasp. He, he is, content and basically, one, one girl after another, I mean I think there are only two, but you could see they sort of gathered together. It's like around them people, say different things and then there would be like a lock between him and the attractive girl. It would happen, then it would be over. They would say goodbye. But you could tell something happened, and it happened twice. I was like damn it. (chuckle) Because I like this guy, but it's also like, he's like encroaching on my[00:22:56]

THERAPIST: He's a competitor.

CLIENT: Yeah. And it's not something, I mean without marijuana or something, it's not something I could, I could match in that way. Like, hey, just an ease.

THERAPIST: Would this girl, would the ease in which you feel with you being comfy with this girl? Is that what you meant?

CLIENT: I don't know what the question is.

THERAPIST: Are you saying like the ease, like how you would need marijuana to feel more at ease with the girl?

CLIENT: Well, I didn't mean to say that, but that's probably implied. I'm not really being difficult.

THERAPIST: No, no, I was trying to clarify.

CLIENT: Because that, I'm pretty sure that he does marijuana, he does drugs. It's, it does help I think to, or at least in my case to follow more natural impulses.[00:24:07]

I wouldn't say I was nervous at all. But there's a pronounced ease. And from myself, I tend to sort of shade it with, with marijuana. Because it's been along time since. I think marijuana makes you more yourself. I mean where ever you are, at a particular time I think it sort of brings you back into that like squares it. You lose contact to an extent, but the trade off is you lose contact with outside expectations. You become more immersed, you like wade into your own pool a little bit. (pause) It is possible to reach that without marijuana but it's not very sustainable I don't think. [00:25:14]

THERAPIST: Are you talking kind of about a comfort with yourself? A comfort that you would feel with yourself?

CLIENT: I'm talking about a comportment. A particular comportment.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: A comfort with yourself is sort of, it's almost illusory in some cases. That doesn't sound right. I struggled with this last time or the time before or something like that. (pause) Like I said, it makes you more of yourself. So for me it would, it could also mean sort of nagging doubts of whatever I become, satisfied or happy. I just (inaudible phrase), you know. Like marijuana makes it so that, if you are really determined, there are dishes to do, but you know that doing dishes isn't really important to you. And so you don't feel pressured to do them because it's not part of like, what's important to you. Should you do the dishes? Probably. But I mean, you don't. And you are satisfied not doing them. It could lead to tension over time, but it's surprising how long that would take when you're contented with yourself. [00:26:56]

I think the last time I had marijuana was, summer of 2008? It wasn't a very good experience. (pause) I, (laughter) they

(pause from [00:27:34] to [00:28:03].

I had this one thing, (pause) I think maybe because of the sort of, indifferent relationship my mother and father seem to have, I lack a sort of, a grasp. Like a romantic grasp with the opposite sex. What I find is I, I take on like a fatherly role. It happened with Sethtina, it happened with my cousin too. And in some cases, it could be ridiculous, like I don't have a job, I'm not a responsible person. It seems to be my default way of relating. It's just an intensity of care. It's sort of driving like some sort of arrogating, some moral satisfaction from being perfectly accommodating.[00:29:45]

Emotionally and some times it's physically. But it's not, it seems unnatural to me, especially at my age. I mean I (pause) I think I'm slowly composing a more predatory, and healthy approach. (pause)

THERAPIST: You say an unhealthy approach?

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: Did you say predatory and unhealthy?

CLIENT: No I said I think it's more healthy.

THERAPIST: Healthy okay. Which is because it's less of that paternalistic kind of

CLIENT: It's more natural.

THERAPIST: It's more natural.

CLIENT: It makes more sense, and it works better. (pause) I think. (chuckle) (pause from [00:30:56] to [00:31:20].

THERAPIST: Wow, what's that?

CLIENT: Well I hate to jump out of character again, but (pause) I hope you realize like, that or you will at least sympathize with the idea that, there is a very good chance that this publishing company is like a front for the CIA and I'm sure there are like divisions between, like, just business that's government business, and business that's information business. But it just seems intensely logical to me that it would be a very good way to collect information inconspicuously. I mean, files, all your files downloaded to a site or whatever preference they have. And (inaudible) sort of practice because of that.

THERAPIST: Yeah, no, I get it. Listen, again as I said, you can always tell me nay at any point.

CLIENT: Oh that's fine, I just, I don't know, yeah. Because that's what I believe, I feel pressured to provide something. [00:32:41]

THERAPIST: Yeah, and I get it.

(laughter)

CLIENT: But I mean, you have to think, who would actually form this company? Who has an interest in that. It takes like a lot of, it's a pretty complex company to just come out and open. It's not like, not very natural.

THERAPIST: Did you check into it at all?

CLIENT: No I didn't. I just assumed as much. But it would be very good. I mean if you had an informant, or you needed files or even I'm sure there are people that would want to reach for leverage. And maybe getting to a psychotherapist or to somebody like that, to participate and put out the calls. Or they could even, I don't know, there are all kinds of ways it could be useful. [00:33:37]

THERAPIST: Yeah, no. Yeah. No there are dangers about it, but I think there is also like a, I guess one thing that I'm thinking about Donald is that, I kind of, I kind of wonder if I didn't push it a little bit too much on you. And I wonder if, if I didn't give you enough space to kind of really, I mean maybe my eagerness to kind of go, and let's take this up and meet more frequently. And you know, this is a way to do it too.

CLIENT: I (inaudible) for this first meeting, I think it was inevitable that it would be a little different. But I anticipate that we will get used to it. And I do think we need more, it was a good idea. Because it's true, we sort of did like one or two stories a session and I have so many more.

THERAPIST: (laughter)

CLIENT: I have so much to say. I mean yeah. [00:34:40]

THERAPIST: It just felt to me that we were, that was my experience that we were just getting cut off right at a, you know. And I think that to me like always signals, raising the question of meeting more often. But you know, and the other thing is, you know, it's not uncommon or unusual to kind of have the second meeting be you know, it means something. It means I am getting, I am insinuating myself into your life more, you know? Let's face it, you are with a character you don't know very well. (chuckle) You don't know me very well. We don't know each other very well yet. You know, anything is possible, I mean it's a way that, the recordings are a reflection of anything's possible. You don't know what to expect of me. I'm glad I'm, you know, you say it's breaking character, but I say it's very real what you bring up. I mean, it's part of what I've been asking, or I guess what I was asking you to do. I know you were receptive to it, it seemed you were receptive. I didn't feel like at the time I was coercing you, being coercive or anything. But, you know [00:36:02]

CLIENT: You know, I'm not just paranoid. I don't think it's a diffraction of being terribly uncomfortable with the situation. I just,

THERAPIST: No, I appreciate you bringing it up, because it's there, and it's here and its

CLIENT: Yeah. And I certainly sense them. A psychologist's could be, almost like, I, you know, I don't say this very much through experience, but seems they could fill roles just like a bottom feeder. When you have someone who is not in a good way, basically through (pause) yeah, they are sort of perceiving their intimate details of their lives, you've sort of cultivated a dependency. Like farming somebody.

THERAPIST: Like what somebody?

CLIENT: Farming.

THERAPIST: Farming somebody.

CLIENT: I don't get that sense from you at all. Sometimes I just do things like not giving up my cousin Seth's name, I just get an impulse not to do it. Maybe just to shake things up. [00:37:27]

THERAPIST: I don't think so. Maybe shaking things up in some way, but it's also like you're sort of getting that, I think it an important kind of feeling of like, when you are getting in a relationship with somebody, and let's face it, you tell me like, you want, you're not happy with how your life is. You want more from your life and you are feeling, I was thinking of whether you are feeling kind of eager and an urgency to have some help. And people can exploit the, people can exploit that. Psychologist's can, (chuckle) you know, the whole movie where, that you have a master, or that, P.T. Anderson movie, which is a great movie by the way. It's all about that. In my mind, one aspect of it was this character who wants so badly to get some help, and you know, this guy, he's a guru, a psychologist, a writer, take the others away and he exploits them. It's like a real thing. [00:38:26]

CLIENT: How does he do it?

THERAPIST: Well he's a, it's actually this, the movie is loosely moved, apparently is loosely based on L. Ron Hubbard, and Scientology. And so, the guy does it by, he is a, he offers help to Phillip Seymour Hoffman plays the master, and Joachim Phoenix plays this guy who is really in need of help. And they have a very kind of complex relationship. It's not simply, it's not simply as he's just exploiting this guy, in fact it's a lot more complicated than that. but it certainly, Joachim Phoenix puts his life in this guy's hands. And why it didn't seem like it was always the best idea. He was, he was in need. He was in need. [00:39:29]

CLIENT: Regardless of what conversations may have come out of it, my decision not to share my cousin Seth's name, for my point of view, was entirely impulsive. So.

THERAPIST: I see, yeah.

CLIENT: I kind of fucked that up there.

(laughter)

CLIENT: I'll get off my soap box.

(laughter)

THERAPIST: It did feel impulsive. What did you, what do you notice, you said it, stirring things up, wanting to

CLIENT: Yeah, I just, what I didn't, I did like have an impulse that say's don't do this, so I don't do that. Don't, it's just silly, I don't know. Maybe not, maybe there is something. Not wanting to give you something, but I don't associate it with anything personal. [00:40:32]

THERAPIST: Oh okay.

CLIENT: Just giving you a hard time, maybe shift power to my favor, I have no idea. If I keep changing then okay. If I keep going steady then it maybe it becomes more mutual. But if I start to mix things up all the time, I start to keep you guessing. You are coming out and wondering about my concern isn't crap. I have more control in those situations. More control than I'm understood probably. Well, probably less health benefits, whatever. (pause)

THERAPIST: You referred to some need to maintain a sense of control though, power. You feel like you might get lot or?

CLIENT: I don't trust institutions, social routines, or many people. (pause) So if I follow my impulses or my natural reaction, I guess it's unnatural, my natural reaction is to just start walking the other way.

(pause from [00:42:31] to [00:42:53]).

THERAPIST: Do you think it might have something to do with the sense of walking towards and away, as a way of kind of managing the trust, or,

CLIENT: Yeah, that's really good. Because I have had experiences with that, where, you know, understanding a situation is somehow independent of the trust level, or the, some sort of unconscious expectations that seem to exist. And I have felt in the past like, intimacy is, intimacy just leads to betrayed in some way. (pause) So yeah, I mean after I, after I boned Grace (ph) Friday I went to my room and cut off contact for half the week or whatever.

THERAPIST: Yeah, we have to stop but, you know, I think, out of the meetings that we've had so far, one thing that you've been telling me about is, is a lot of instances of you, earlier on, putting a lot, putting a lot of yourself and your heart into something and then, and then you kind of getting betrayed. Not kind of getting, getting let down and disappointed and sometimes utterly betrayed. Gosh, you know, I guess I can even see it in the, the kind of things that have gone on between you and your mom. You know, really making something of yourself and never being kind of sufficient enough for her, to be really satisfied or happy. (pause from [00:45:12] to [00:45:29]).

CLIENT: Yeah or if it's overly sufficient, she feels threatened.

THERAPIST: Either way.

CLIENT: (inaudible)

THERAPIST: Okay, Friday.

CLIENT: Friday yeah, great. 2:00.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: See you then. Get my car from the clutches of the traffic cop. See ya.

END TRANSCRIPT