TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Alright. Here we go. Just plug this in over here. (pause) Okay. Hey.

CLIENT: Hello.

THERAPIST: Hi. (long pause) Having trouble knowing where to start? [00:01:09]

CLIENT: Yeah, I thought of something, I guess.

THERAPIST: But did you have an idea?

CLIENT: Huh? Oh, no. (pause) (inaudible at 00:01:29) her period, it's been difficult to have sex. Want to have sex, but I (inaudible) her anyway, and— (pause)

THERAPIST: Does she not have sex with you once she's on her period?

CLIENT: No. No. (pause) (inaudible) occasion— I mean, I visited her on a recent morning. (inaudible at 00:02:32) and, she was sort of describing to me the process through which she'd come to live here, and about an ex-boyfriend who got like—who, at first, seemed like he was gay, but then, turned out he wasn't, and they lived together in an apartment, almost through convenience. And it seemed like she was kind of bent out of shape when she found out that he'd been having relations with other women. But, in her telling, that occurred after something happened that sort of broke them up. It might have been when she found drugs or something. But then Kelly (ph) went crazy and (inaudible at 00:03:43). And also stayed in the apartment, which belong to her parents, longer than he should have, and caused problems, and threatened her family, and things like that. And what else? Oh, so, her new work boyfriend saved her from that, or moved her out of that situation. Her newer boyfriend being her cousin, (inaudible), and he moved her stuff out of that apartment, and he tried (inaudible at 00:04:30). But, it made, sort of, sense. And to me, it seems like it's a difficult transition for her. Like, she doesn't know the word "shoveling." She doesn't know what it means. So like, when we got into winter, I think it's been a little tricky. But, she never says it to me. I imagine it's always on her mind that maybe she should move back. I know from my own exploits of trying to live in cities by myself without much preamble, that I've actually went home, despite whatever plans.

THERAPIST: Do you kind of relate to her point, you know?

CLIENT: Yeah, it's a struggle. I mean, the workplace, from her complaining, is not very amicable. Although, she's (inaudible at 00:05:43). Yeah, so she was telling me all these things, and I was lying there, and I need her physically, really. And she knows that, more or less. But then I listen to all that stuff, and she said I'm a bad listener. And that kind of—

THERAPIST: She said that you were?

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, on top of it all, I, like, sit here listening to this. And she says I'm not even listening. But, I think I listen and I hear just about everything, but I'm not very sympathetic. There's a difference.

THERAPIST: She had picked up on more that component of it, do you think?

CLIENT: I don't know if she picked up on anything, but I— Sometime after that— I mean, she said, after she told that to me, that she felt very relieved, like she could breathe. Because previously, this story had come out in fragments and she explained, no, she hadn't really been able to construct the whole thing because it was such a dark period, that she couldn't really get ahold of the whole thing. But, it was the first time in my (inaudible at 00:07:10) she said her recent experience, that she had a real sense of what brought her to the present moment.

THERAPIST: Well, your listening must not have been a complete wash, then.

CLIENT: Yeah. So, I (inaudible at 00:07:29), some sort of instrument of leverage that was just there. Just like a woman, I imagine, could feel used by a man sexually, I felt sort of used as a listener because in her construction of this, it was great to get the story together, but I was also not a good listener. So, I didn't really win in any sense. I didn't get any return on that. So afterwards, for whatever reason, I was sitting down, right. It's interesting. I'm not sure if this is one of those cases. I have a sense that in certain relationships, you—it's like you want to trade nothing for something. Like, I want intimacy. I want that connection, like we say. But, I'm not sure I'm willing to throw much out there, you know. Like, I don't want anything long term, although it's possible I could fall into a pitfall, some sort of emotional pitfall and get trapped, or something like that, but it's not what I want. Still, I like it when she's honest with me. And there are certain moments where she flashes a cleverness, and, sort of a serendipity. And she called it out, like (inaudible at 00:09:13). I said something like, during recent exercises, it's nothing like—or it helped me to get comfortable with my body. It's the wrong kind of dirty talk, and she picked up on it right away. And she said something like, "I don't want you using me for anything." And she said, "I'm not using you for anything. There's no use." Which, I thought (inaudible at 00:09:41). But, I didn't say anything. (pause) But there are flashes of genuine understanding and care. I like how she says things like (inaudible 00:10:08). Things like that. (inaudible) Yeah, but for some reason, after the session which she—was very important to her, I guess—that she (laughter) displaying difference (inaudible), but very important to her, where she— this is her body language. She was sort of proper up. She had her legs sort of over my naked body, and I had them, sort of holding her and whatever. But, after about an hour, she moved to that position there, telling a story. And so she was sort of leaned back, and up on me like this, and I moved her legs and sort of pulled her close. It's all about (inaudible at 00:10:52). But she put her legs back up on me, and (inaudible). [00:11:00]

After that, I was out in the kitchen and for some reason I felt moved to ask, you know, "What are you going to do once, your boyfriend, comes up here?" because she'd been stringing this guy along. Like she'd stopped answering his texts while we were having sex, at least. (pause) In her construction, he keeps bothering her and in my understanding, she doesn't want to cut him loose because she's not sure — he's her cousin, he's close to her family, he's in South America, maybe she'll go back to him, you know. It's tough for her at work, it's a difficult place, it's not a connection she's entirely sure she wants to sever. A Kite is a Victim. You know that poem?

THERAPIST: What is it?

[00:11:59]

CLIENT: A Kite is a Victim.

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: Oh. Well, the point is — well, I won't say that. Forget about that. It's like if you have someone who is emotionally dependent on you, you keep it. It doesn't — it's something people do. There are very few people who just sort of — (pause) (chuckles) Very few people who dismiss the prostate (ph) figure in their lives, if there's some sort of use they can (inaudible at 00:12:40).

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: So, you know, her boyfriend has been lied to for some number of months. As I disclosed, I mean, she had sex with my other roommate the day after he left. So on this occasion at the table, I said "What are you going to do when your boyfriend moves here because he's, you know, desperate for you?"

[00:13:04]

She's the only thing in his life. He's 40, he has like — he only recently got a job because she told him to. "So what are you going to do when he moves here?" She said "Well, why do you ask?" and I [paused for a moment] and she started to walk away and I told her not to.

So she sat down and I said something like — (pause) I don't know how I said it, so I won't [try to narrate it], but I was pretty [frustrated] in saying, you know, "You complained to me for a month after your boyfriend left visiting here about how he was bothering you, despite the fact that you had sex with our roommate the next day." So what I was saying — what I said — "It's difficult for me to trust or lend much credibility to what you say when you wasted so much of my time."

[00:14:15]

I didn't say "You wasted so much of my time" but I said "You complained to me when your boyfriend was clearly sensing that something was going on and trying to talk to you about it. You know, so why should I" — and she said "Well, there's sort of a difference between the way men talk and the way women talk, and so I just won't talk to you anymore."

I said "You know, I'm not saying 'don't talk to me,' but I talk in a different way." She [constructed] this idea that, you know, a woman just wants to — or she just wants to sort of clear her mind or bounce ideas off someone to sort of make sense of her feelings. And I stopped her and I said "So what does that mean to me? You know, I'm over here and you're bouncing stuff off me and I said nothing."

[00:15:09]

THERAPIST: What did you mean by that?

CLIENT: I mean as a listener, if you're just bouncing bullshit off me to see what sticks, you know, that doesn't mean anything to me.

THERAPIST: Oh yeah.

CLIENT: Maybe it's valuable to her, but it means nothing to me.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Then she started crying. So I walked over to her and I said (chuckles) — I put my hand out to her and I said "I'm going to go now." Because previously she had said something like "You're not a good listener and it's obvious because sometimes you just walk away from a conversation, so you could at least say 'I'm going to go now.'" So that's what I did. I said "I'm going to go now." Because when I walked away previously, she's talking about her boyfriend and I don't get the sense that it's real, you know. It's not the center of the issue she's driving at me. It's like she's feeding me some sort of story and I'm not taking it. I'm just walking away, you know?

[00:16:06]

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: And whether or not that's the reality of the situation, that's how I perceived it and so I don't have really second thoughts about it.

THERAPIST: I was thinking, do you — is it kind of, you know, an expression of your feeling that this is somebody who has the capacity to kind of mistreat and use people? I mean, that's not all there is to it, but in this capacity, she's kind of using you, using the — you know.

CLIENT: In her case, I guess I feel an element of control I didn't previously. From my experience with the virgin girl, I feel like there's a definite similarity in these two. Like I've been here before and I've been hurt before.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: And I sort of — I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid, you know?

[00:17:07]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (chuckles) So whether or not that's the actual situation, I don't know, you know. Or am I just sort of projecting this past experience onto the present one? I don't know. Are you skeptical?

THERAPIST: No, no. I actually think that what I was thinking about was that you've been in this — as you were just pointing out, saying the same thing. In a lot of ways, you've been in this same position before. A woman that is somewhat solicitous and using in some way. Not even necessarily that they're being maliciously so, but that's just what they do. And then, as we were talking about on Friday, there's a way that you kind of get drawn in. There's a way they can easily — where you have in the past been drawn in, only to have the lines suddenly change on you.

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yeah.

[00:18:04]

THERAPIST: And like I sense that you were getting that feeling from her and saying "Wait a second. I feel something here that's off." Not wanting to go down that rose (chuckles). Road.

CLIENT: (chuckles) Right.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:18:20) pattern.

CLIENT: A rose is thorny.

THERAPIST: (chuckles) Yeah. I mean, I've got to say, it's also something that you were describing, I think the last thing you mentioned here was in some way "What kind of road am I taking you down too? Like am I being solicitous in some way, cultivating a certain kind of relationship?"

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And are you going to get burned in some way? And where are the lines? Where are the boundaries? Where are the kind of — (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess I don't fear running from you, maybe because you're a man. It does seem possible, that the whole cultivation thing seems possible.

[00:19:08]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And in your interest and probably, for some extent of time, my interest.

THERAPIST: Yeah, the whole issue too of people — and I think you were talking a bit about your mother in this regard — there's some way of preying that, you know, again, not a malicious, conscious preying-upon, but preying upon the other person's needs for one's own needs in some way.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. So the boyfriend — today I got — yeah, so after I did that and clearly hurt her feelings, because she had just — you know how when you share something very deep — I shouldn't (inaudible at 00:19:56), but I hurt her feelings.

[00:20:00]

Later that day, I'm sort of in my room. I was working on e-mails, mildly important stuff to do with the church, and like she came in and she's like "Can I talk to you for a second?" I said "Yeah." (pause) I don't let her in my bed. She might sit on my bed, but I didn't let her sit on my bed. I told her to sit where I was sitting.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: Or rather I put my laptop there so she wouldn't sit there and switched positions. Anyway, she came in and she was like "I want to thank you for what you said today. You know, I can't be hiding anything. I told her everything, and I kind of feel like I can breathe" or whatever. I said "Yes, that's great" and I gave her a good hug. (pause) And then she left.

THERAPIST: Wow.

[00:21:04]

CLIENT: It's unusual. I didn't get the sense — I don't know how it could be sincere because — I didn't get the sense it was insincere. I think it's something she wanted to say, but she seemed fragile and it's very hard for me to comprehend how someone can thank you after you've hurt them. Like if you hurt someone emotionally, they hate you. It doesn't matter whether what you said was true. Like they hate you, typically.

We had this conversation a little bit too. She was saying something like how difficult it is and how you don't want to hurt anybody, and I said "Well, I think it takes courage to hurt someone or to jeopardize the relationship for the sake of the benefit of everyone involved." That's kind of what I seemed to force her to do.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

[00:22:01]

CLIENT: So I got a message from her boyfriend on Facebook this morning, saying something like "I can't fucking believe this. I thought you were a good man, a man of God. You are going to get her deposit back from the landlord, or I will have to come and move her out myself. How dare you take advantage of my girlfriend, my fiancée, my love, when she was vulnerable."

THERAPIST: What did you do with that one?

CLIENT: I said "Some of the things you have said, they don't make sense to me. I'm willing to talk to you. Let me know if you want to Skype." That's what I said.

THERAPIST: Wow.

[00:23:04]

CLIENT: My first impulse was just like "I think you're confused" but I decided to be more low-key. That might be a bad thing. Maybe I should've said "I think you're confused." (laughter) Or not responded. (inaudible at 00:23:18) actually my account.

But my stance is, I mean, I'm not going to lie to anybody. I'll also try to protect her privacy, but today I'm sure he'll take that to her and if she says to me "I don't want you talking to him" then I'm not going to trust her. But if she doesn't really say anything, then that's good. Or if she says anything other than "Don't talk to him, I'll handle it," then it's fine.

THERAPIST: Uh huh. Because if she said "don't talk," then you think there's more that she hasn't told you.

[00:24:00]

CLIENT: Well, it could mean any number of things, but it would mean I'm excluded from any kind of — you know, clearly he doesn't completely understand because I never took advantage of her. I mean, she very clearly came onto me and even seduced me in some sense.

THERAPIST: So she's not this innocent victim of —

CLIENT: (chuckles) No. I'm sure in her mind she's telling him that so he doesn't get hurt.

THERAPIST: Oh yeah, alright, I got it. I see what you're saying.

CLIENT: (laughter) I don't consider her entirely capable of cutting him off, whether because he's close to her parents or who knows. Or more, I think, because of her personal constitution. But I'm just going to take that as it comes. It's a little off-putting. I mean, I was watching (inaudible at 00:24:59) episodes, and I get this angry message from a guy. (laughter)

[00:25:03]

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's a jolt, I imagine.

CLIENT: Right. Which is exactly the only situation I want to avoid. When I gave her, whatever, my swipe at the kitchen table, I didn't mean "You have to inform your boyfriend that we're having an affair." What I said is "It's disrespectful to me that you would, you know, complain to me about bullshit just because you think I don't know that you've had sex with our roommate. Like you've complained about your boyfriend" -

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: Do you see what I'm saying?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: [She's like feeding me stuff].

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I'm just saying I don't talk like that. I talk straight. And when I said earlier like I want to be firm with her, when I said earlier like sometimes there are relationships where you're trying to get something for nothing. I feel like that's sort of the case with me, but she's challenged me enough that at the right moments, like one or two times, where I'm not going to string her along or anything.

[00:26:04]

I feel pretty comfortable, like I've been clear. As in I'm not hiding anything, I don't think. (pause) I guess I appreciate — it would be good. (pause) I won't go there. I don't know what I'm saying.

THERAPIST: What's that?

CLIENT: Well, I'm saying I'm not giving her nothing. I'm being honest like when we're together. I haven't been misleading her.

THERAPIST: Uh huh. But she's been maintaining all along that she's still been with him or at least they're together.

CLIENT: To who?

THERAPIST: To you. Is that her contention?

CLIENT: Her thing is that he keeps bothering her, and she tells him that she's not interested anymore and it's not working. And he takes on a sort of air, which seems believable to me from his message, that you know, she's confused, she doesn't know what she's saying.

[00:27:11]

He's going to come and everything will be better, that kind of stuff. So that's what I get from her. I mean, it varies over time of course, but she's sort of rebuffing him and he's being — he's emotionally — he's in a place where I've been in her story. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: I was thinking that, yeah.

CLIENT: Not that she knows that I know that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Not that she knows that I've been —

THERAPIST: — in that situation.

CLIENT: But I have been — I often ask about him. I said "So how's he doing?" And, you know, I go for a booty call and he texts and she ignores it and it's not really — maybe it should be a [weight on my mind]. But she's also said to me things like — she gets upset if I imply or if I say — like I made the mistake of, in a roundabout way, saying thank you for something, I don't know what it was.

[00:28:17]

I don't know what it was. Sometime after a blowjob I somehow said thank you for something, without saying "thank you" because I never say "thank you," but it was offensive to her, the idea that she didn't want to do whatever she was doing.

THERAPIST: She's actually kind of being clear like "I'm not being used by you."

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: "I'm doing this as much to you as you are to me" or something like that, yeah. Or it's mutual in some way. Is that —

CLIENT: Well, I said "You don't have to suck so hard" is what I said (laughter) because she got tired [or it took forever or something]. I was a little technical. I said something like "Just the fact of being inside of a pretty woman's mouth is ample arousement. You don't need to tire yourself out," and she was like "I do it because I want to do it." I'm just like "Okay." (laughter)

[00:29:18]

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: And then I have the boyfriend on the other end saying like "How dare you take advantage" —

THERAPIST: — take advantage. Right, right. Yeah, yeah. Well it's like you're on this other part of the triangle, you know.

CLIENT: (chuckles) What's that?

THERAPIST: Well, I was thinking that you've often been in the position of the person that is kind of on the outside, the excluded.

CLIENT: [It sucks]. (laughter)

THERAPIST: (chuckles) Yeah, right. Well, precisely, I think part of the allure beyond that but still in the triangle is that you're very aware of — you know, you've been on the painful side of it so much. You know, the part that has really wrecked you emotionally at times.

[00:30:16]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, my conclusion is nothing comes to you because you need it. Like if you're (inaudible at 00:30:32). I mean, if you're on the roadway and you want to move into a lane, people don't just open up the space for you and you just go over and say "thank you everybody." You have to take that spot in the lane. I mean, I think that's the natural order. You take what you want. (pause) I don't know. That's how it is. I think women, in a certain sense, like to be taken. They like to be taken by, you know, the strongest guy or the — they like to be taken.

[00:31:15]

Maybe it's physically, maybe it's emotionally. It doesn't really matter what it is. Men should take, and women like to be taken. I guess that's where I sit on it now, conveniently. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Conveniently? What do you mean?

CLIENT: Well, because it fits my current situation. In the past, I would've raised some moral objections if I were on the other corner of the triangle, some moral objections to whatever was going on.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: And that would be convenient for me then. (pause)

THERAPIST: Well, and it's definitely — the other piece of it seems to be, with Cleo (ph) at least, this feeling of like "I'm not going to go down that road. I'm not going to go down that with her. I know I have in the past and I've been burned," you know?

[00:32:15]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: "I've tried to give women — I have this connection and kind of take care, tend to them."

CLIENT: Yeah. [It's not that though]. But my later concern is that I really like, at times — like the thing with Cleo (ph) because she was just, I don't know. It's good. It's comfortable. It's nice. But there's this other girl, and I feel myself sort of almost getting into that position of — there's a sense of [curling], sort of a leaning towards something that's an unstable position, that could throw me into the same loop that Tony is in now.

[00:33:14]

But it's with another woman. Just a very angular — like a face that's been sort of been carved out by [someone]. Cleo (ph) had that face (inaudible at 00:33:31) all over it. This one, it's like it's chiseled [by someone]. Her parents divorced when she was younger, but she's still like, her cheeks are rigid. When she's paying attention, she'll laugh like that a little bit. A stern exterior but very limpid eyes. [I shouldn't suggest] that I'm really physically attracted to her. It's more emotional. There's something about it. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: The sorrow. Is it the sorrow?

CLIENT: I don't think she's sorrowful now. She's almost dead on the outside, but you can tell there's someone very interesting inside.

[00:34:10]

THERAPIST: Huh. There's something compelling emotionally about her, would you say?

CLIENT: I feel like I could fix her, and I get that sense after I brought her home the other night. Talking to her is pretty natural. Talking to Cleo (ph) isn't natural, but she's honest at times.

THERAPIST: But you're also aware that with Rebecca there's a bit of dangerousness?

CLIENT: Yeah because I scarcely know her but I already want to (inaudible at 00:34:50). (chuckles). Like when I drove her home — I try not to regret things much but, you know, I drove her home. She had ridden a bike to where we had a group potluck, and I got her bike out of the car and she was there.

[00:35:11]

She was kind of quiet the last two blocks (inaudible). When I got her bike out, I closed the trunk and she was standing there facing me, and the bike just fell over. So I was wondering (chuckles) whether I should've pressed to go inside because I don't think she would've — she wanted me to go in. I wanted to go in, but I wasn't willing to admit that, I guess. Or take a risk. That wasn't it, it was just, I didn't have a plan. I don't know what it was but, you know, I could've — she dropped — this is someone who is pretty together, and her bike just fell over. It's like, I should've said "Can I come in?" or "Do you want me to come in?" [Because it would've been good].

[00:36:08]

THERAPIST: But you hesitated or something.

CLIENT: Yeah. Plus the thing with Cleo (ph) was sort of in my head too.

THERAPIST: What? What about it?

CLIENT: Well, I don't know where we are. I'm sure it would make her jealous and that appeals to me. (pause) Still, not completely settled on like whether it's right or the situation is stable. (beeping sound) Hold on.

THERAPIST: Right on cue, huh?

CLIENT: (chuckles) Right.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I was thinking about, that's another angle, another part of the triangle. I mean, it was setting up another kind of potential triangle there.

CLIENT: It's good for all kinds of polygons. (laughter) I mean, it's true. I view Cleo (ph) as someone who is getting me into sexual shape or sexual form, and I appreciate that.

[00:37:17]

And that's what I'm using her for. Whether or not that's plausible, [horrible] or sustainable, that's something else. But that's how I look at it.

THERAPIST: Yeah, but it's also something like, I guess there's this — as you think about it, I guess with Rebecca there's some kind of wondering that you had about "What am I doing? What about Cleo (ph)?" Cleo (ph) entered into your mind in some way.

CLIENT: It was like she was there. As soon as she came in, she was there. She's there in my conscience, I don't know. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: I don't know. (long pause)

[00:38:18]

THERAPIST: Well I was thinking in that instance, you could've been in the position of (inaudible at 00:38:20) the triangle was that it seemed like you could've been there in that position of being her to Tony, and her being Tony in some way. You know, like some way it would've been like she would've been upset that you would've found interest in Rebecca as opposed to her. And just the way that you've been. You've been on the side of Tony. Is that making sense?

CLIENT: So I would've done to her what she was doing to Tony.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, so getting back at the bitches, yeah. Sure.

THERAPIST: And then you're like "I don't know if I want to do that" somewhat. I don't know why.

CLIENT: (chuckles) Maybe, maybe.

[00:39:10]

THERAPIST: It might be too much conjecture.

CLIENT: Probably just risk-adverse.

THERAPIST: But also yeah, something between you and Rebecca though too.

CLIENT: Yeah, but that's there. Yeah, I think that's fair. (pause) Burn or be burned, maybe.

THERAPIST: Take or be taken. (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, I should've said "Do you want me to come in?" I mean, what's a good line in that situation? "Do you want me to come in?" Is that good or is that too much like — yeah, that's too passive.

THERAPIST: What are you thinking about?

CLIENT: Well, the line to say to Rebecca in the car.

THERAPIST: That would've been too -

CLIENT: That would've been too passive because it's saying — because the woman wants to feel like she has no choice or like she doesn't want to take the initiative.

[00:40:07]

I should've said something like "Can I come in?" and then she can say "yes" or "no." But if you say something like "Do you want me to come in?" then she has to be like, she has to put some skin in the game, you know. She has to be like "I do want you to come in."

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. As well as saying "Can I come in?" leaves you kind of more exposed.

CLIENT: Yeah, it does. It would've been fine though.

THERAPIST: Well alright, so Friday. It will be the new time at -

CLIENT: 1:45.

THERAPIST: Yeah, thanks for switching that around for me.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: (laughter)

THERAPIST: What's that?

CLIENT: I don't know. Thinking about Tony.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Thanks.

THERAPIST: Okay.

END TRANSCRIPT