TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: How are you?

CLIENT: Good. Good. Thanks. How are you?

THERAPIST: Good. (PAUSE) Here you go.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST Yeah.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: Sort of stationary.

THERAPIST: Yeah? (inaudible at 00:00:23)

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:00:39)

(PAUSE) [00:01:00]

CLIENT: It's pretty nice to have, I think.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: Why? Are you thinking about something else? (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Actually now I was thinking it got cold again. When you said that I was thinking, "It's cold. It's colder today."

CLIENT: Yeah, the cold doesn't bother me. It's some sort of quality about the light...

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: ...of nature. I think... We had a tiny rainstorm last night and that's April 1. It's the initiation of Spring. Not always. It just this time seems that way.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, now the light is every different now this year.

CLIENT: See I knew it would be a hard winter. I think I guessed mostly because last year there was no snow.

THERAPIST: (SIGH) [00:01:59]

CLIENT: I think I was very worried because a city needs snow to sleep, I think. It's sort of like, like blankets on all the very particular neuroticisms that, the particular ugliness of the city, all the little features we've crafted and brought... It's an imposition of nature on an environment which needs it very much. Last year there was no snow and sort of like the city... I didn't sleep last year during winter. I think I told you I went for like five weeks where I was getting seven hours of sleep a week.

THERAPIST: Seven hours a week?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: But... So I expected a heavy winter this year. I discussed it with some people on the bus before, you know, during the fall, just random strangers saying that they thought... And mostly (inaudible at 00:03:05) I think that's what we were talking about. But the... [00:03:07]

This one woman was saying, "Well, that's not what scientists say. You know? Winters are getting warmer and warmer." I said, "Well, science has been around for a couple hundred years but superstition..."

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: "...that's, you know, that's been around for millennia." (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: There's got to be something to it, right? (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: Well, I honestly think so.

THERAPIST: Interesting.

CLIENT: I'm very skeptical of sort of an assumed, like a condescension to previous centuries because we know so much more. I'm sure, you know middle aged Catholicism had intricacies and abilities for explaining the world that we, we wouldn't be able to fully grasp. [00:03:55]

And basically what they knew, it probably wasn't so egregious as we suppose with the burning of the heretics and all that crap. (PAUSE). It's a particular kind of arrogance to assume that you know better than millions of people who have lived throughout centuries.

THERAPIST: Or even the burning of the heretics. I understand that some people have kind of rethought what that was all about.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Wow. You must have heard that somewhere.

THERAPIST: Yeah. It's random, you know, but that it wasn't as... There wasn't... The idea of this persecution going on is quite overblown. That's what some people have kind of...

CLIENT: Huh.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:04:57)

(PAUSE) [00:05:00]

THERAPIST: But more to your point that, that, you know, that looking back it's easy to say, "Here they were..."

CLIENT: Who's to judge? Yeah. (PAUSE) Yeah, it's like judging a... Well, that's the wrong analogy. I was going to say it's like judging a fifth grader by college standards, calling their imagination or their imaginary friends foolish or something. That's, that's not adequate for what we're talking about. (PAUSE) [00:05:53]

Speaking of Christian ideals, I thought... You know, some days when I'm feeling good I don't know if I want to delve into issues that have been troubled me for, you know, that have been occupying my thoughts for some time because it's always possible that I've transcended them. I could just be like dragging up a dead body out of the muck of some black swamp. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: But Brian (ph) put a... It seems like a (inaudible at 00:06:29) to me. Just as I think, you know, (inaudible at 00:06:33) having sex with my roommate isn't any sort of problem so much as trying to deceive me about it. I think that, that someone... You know, behaviors or actions which adversely affect me, someone else's behaviors or actions which adversely affect me (inaudible at 00:06:57) except insofar I see they in part or in (inaudible at 00:07:09) a mentality of being wrong[00:07:11]

I think that's not a very healthy way of thinking about things It's not useful. It's not enthusing. It's not, not even strictly like correct. I don't think enough... This is (inaudible at 00:07:35) the right to expect anything from anyone. Just deal with it as best you can.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Almost like to feel, to feel burned or something would be to kind of already expect a certain level of faithfulness or goodwill or kindness or something like that. [00:08:11]

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Are you thinking you need to let (inaudible at 00:08:25) know that you expected as much from her in terms of... (PAUSE) ...decency or something like that? Or not that...

(PAUSE) [00:09:00]

CLIENT: It's kind of the reason I don't think like (inaudible at 00:09:29) or all that effective or I'm beginning to expect anyway because they force recipients of AA to accept that mentality that they're, that it's like a task of acceptance that they've been brought on in some way or that you deserve (inaudible at 00:09:53) or something like that. [00:09:55]

I mean, in accepting that help you're acknowledging or implicitly adopting an attitude of having been violated or perpetrated in some way, perpetrated a ton. And I think that's inutil. It's not positive. (PAUSE) Yeah. That's why I was reluctant to bring this up because for me (inaudible at 00:10:39) completely sort of detached.

THERAPIST: Uh huh. Yeah.

(PAUSE) [00:11:00]

CLIENT: Do you watch any basketball?

THERAPIST: What's that?

CLIENT: Do you watch any basketball?

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: Which ones?

THERAPIST: I'm a Nets fan.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) You say that with an appropriate amount of duplicity.

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER) Duplicity... Yeah, I'm a Nets fan. Nets... I grew up being a Nets fan.

CLIENT: Well, they're in the playoffs though or I mean...

THERAPIST: They will be. They (inaudible at 00:11:47)

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:11:53)

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:11:55) gotten in and out of sports in the last three years and I got involved with... The Celtics had this series with the Chicago Bulls where they... I think they were (inaudible at 00:12:03) but they were in the playoff so they were facing (inaudible at 00:12:09) first or second year or something. [00:12:09]

It was like epic. There were like...

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: ...several games that went into triple overtime.

THERAPIST: I recall. Yeah, that was crazy.

CLIENT: But, yeah, so after that I think I was a big fan of the Celtics and I understood like a lot. That was just my focus was the one team and through them I sort of... Like when they played Dallas, I realized that Dallas was going to win the championship that coming year because they had tried, the Celtics had tried their best when they had... They had like Shaq and like Perkins and all those people. It was like their, a team of like, a lot of different role players and there were lots of them, Shaquille O'Neal and all these people. It was before they did this very controversial trade. [00:12:53]

They played the Dallas Mavericks and they kind of tried their best but they lost by a couple points, you know, three or four points at the end and I realized Dallas would win that year because of that game halfway through the season. But then, you know, I get involved and then I realize once, once I'm disappointed I realize it's just a completely vicarious enterprise. So, you know, it has nothing to do with me at all. Like I get elated when they win or, you know, I try to pretend I'm okay when they lose.

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: But it's just completely out of my control and not... For some reason there are things that aren't healthy about it. Like...

THERAPIST: Almost as if you were like... If you weren't interested in the first place, you wouldn't have these ups and downs.

CLIENT: Not in that sense. It's just that's something that's going on and it has nothing to do with me and I suppose that's exactly the draw and the aspect that puts you off. You know? [00:14:01]

Here's something that's independent and self-sufficient. You know? In classical terms, that's like the definition of beauty, something that needs nothing else. It's self-contained. You can just observe it and take part in it without altering it. I guess it's nice in that way. But it's also true that it's, it's not at all related to me so it has the potential to be an escape for anybody, you know, for any personal challenges. (PAUSE) But, yeah, I went last year and I didn't watch the playoffs because I knew I would be disappointed. This year, you know, I was conscious of the fact that like... I was thinking, "Oh no. I could not end up like checking every game at the end of the year." Just looking at the website, I had this picture in my mind. I was thinking (inaudible at 00:14:55) interested in the team. [00:15:01]

I like the playoffs and they don't face the Heat until they get to the second round. The interesting thing about that team is they have good players like Pearson Garnett (ph) and they have a bunch of other guys. They're kind of good. But if you take out the sort of veteran, the other filler guys, they take on bigger roles. So actually neither. You know? Before they're sort of just like meandering around the sort of edifices. You know? Top ten players. But if you take the top ten out they're very comfortable taking the lead and dominating.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: I happened with when Rondo (ph) went out and the team won the next twelve games. It just shows you that... I don't know if it was actually twelve but they won a good number of the next twenty or so games. [00:16:01]

Well it goes to show you there's sort of like, there could be a lot of untapped potential in the people within an organization and they just need the chance... They need the sunlight. You know? They need the old cleared out to really flourish.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well, yeah, it's not how you're describing some of your draw to fields that have some pressure to them.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:16:37) that helps you tap into having some stress on you or some pressure helps you...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...tap into something. Yeah. Huh. (PAUSE) Huh. [00:16:53]

Even a football game, football, the football game. Just thinking about there are these... Well, you know, in the saying, the song that you played that there seemed to be this old guard step aside and what you have, let you have your day in the sun.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. (PAUSE) That... (PAUSE) Yeah, I wonder how much that's the theme for people around the edge because (inaudible at 00:17:39) just a boomer thing, dealing with the boomer generation quote unquote, quote unquote, if you get that. Because I deal with the same sort of thing that the church has brought. There are just sort of people who are eager to welcome newer members to the... I call it the church but no one else calls it the church, but the institution, religious institution, henceforth referred to as church. [00:18:09]

They want to welcome people but they, they can only conceive of welcoming them in a sort of, "Here, I'll take you under my wing and it's so wonderful to meet you and look I'm paying you all this attention and I'm actually interested in who you are." And I don't have this problem so much anymore at all. Now and then but, you know, I've gotten used to it now that I've gotten more recently well known.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: But for other people and at the beginning it's like that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And maybe I'm just picking up on it because of my own experience with my family. [00:18:55]

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean, I think it's, I think you're talking about something that is kind of an inevitable thing.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: You know, you're kind of... People that can be mentors in sort of can also be your oppressors in another way, in this complicated way.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think that is. Did you have that experience in school at all?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: Yeah. If you did something wrong...

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER If you...

THERAPIST: If you didn't have that experience in school, you didn't experience school, I think. You know, like you're... It's almost the nature of having your own identity or forming your own take on the world. You... You're going to rub against other ideas. You're going to... If you're going to find yourself you're going to... You need people to mentor you. You also need to fight against them in some way.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean, that's my own opinion. I don't... I got to say that it is maybe a more broad need. [00:20:05]

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: I think I've been sort of skittish about that. I'm not a lazy person in particular or haven't been. I don't take compliments or expressions of gratitude lightly. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That's probably what a lot of people do is just dismiss it like some sort of self-deprecation.

THERAPIST: What does it feel like to get, you know, a compliment?

CLIENT: A lot of times it feels fake or I suspect it's ingenuine. Unless it's... If it's something I respect that I've done, then I know. I say, inwardly I saw, "Yeah, that's right." (LAUGHTER) [00:21:11]

And then I just say, "Thank you for what you said. Thank you." But a lot of the time... If someone expresses... It's the Groucho Marx quote, you know, "I don't want to be a part of any (inaudible at 00:21:33) of which I'm a member," or something. (LAUGHTER) I feel like if they're praising something that's unfinished or I haven't had I felt, I kind of felt (inaudible at 00:21:51) you know, go spin your shit to somebody else," essentially. But I don't (inaudible at 00:21:59) that. [00:21:59]

THERAPIST: But inwardly that's how you feel.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What'd you say? "Jump off?"

CLIENT: Yes. Jump off. (PAUSE) I sometimes feel like... Like I feel like I got beat by my boss at the flower shop. I didn't know how to deal with that. She was one that where I was a very, very good worker, obviously overqualified for the job. Perhaps not obviously but overqualified for the job. [00:22:57]

Yeah, exceptionally good at delivering flowers and making things that needed to be done and customer relations, never had a complaint, barely ever brought any orders brought because they couldn't be delivered even when the address was wrong for people. It didn't matter. I was like a private investigator. Anyway, it was very strange to have, to have a very comfortable familiar relationship of which I've had very few in my life suddenly transform into a hostile and very apathetic series of exchanges and evasions. But I sometimes feel with things like that that I've been conquered in a way and afterwards I sort of adopt the modes of the conqueror. [00:23:57]

(inaudible at 00:23:59) my worst or my hardest challenges was coming to terms with, you know, the fact that my idealized (inaudible at 00:24:07) wasn't the reality and that I had been deceived.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: Perhaps not willfully but nonetheless I harbor my (inaudible at 00:24:23) of the place through its, through whatever means, through its communications, it's (inaudible at 00:24:29) maybe it's my parents. Who knows? It's reputation, it's (inaudible at 00:24:33) which was different from what existed. What existed was different from what I wanted. You know? Now here I am getting into advertising, perhaps public relations. I was thinking too I've heard that affect essentially... [00:24:53]

To be the basically the one in charge of doing the spanning of reception. (PAUSE) And in the same way I've frozen out my roommates. Like (inaudible at 00:25:11) quite painfully quiet. And as far as I'm concerned they don't exist. (PAUSE) And it's not out of spite. It's... Right. It suggest... I suppose I... It's a subject I inquire into because I know it's causing me pain. So (inaudible at 00:25:43) but because I realize that my constant pain isn't the primary reason (inaudible at 00:25:49) I guess for my own sake because the murkiness and just the validity of our actions and our shared experiences is so dubious, so murky...

THERAPIST: Hmm. [00:26:09]

CLIENT: I'm sick of it. I don't care about the... Our shared experiences is of such questionable character it behooves me to avoid it's existence. So we share nothing.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Yeah, that seemed kind of feeling is (inaudible at 00:26:51) disappointing kind of absence of something that is, that is, that is good, that potentially they're... [00:27:05]

CLIENT: No. No, it doesn't. In previous conversations... It wouldn't be like (inaudible at 00:27:23) I did express a feeling that I like these people. You know? (PAUSE) Yeah. But... (PAUSE) Yeah. Deerfield (ph) was a, psychically it was a fraught battle against Brian or the feeling of having been cheated. [00:28:03]

That's actually a fixation on the idea that the way things were was very much different from the way they ought to be. So an idealist... That's an idealist perspective. But the other side of an idealist perspective is sort of a, I suppose, not self-hating and not quite neurotic but self damaging at least and sort of community hating. (LAUGHTER) As he was saying, this... You recognize the way things are and you're saying, "That's wrong." And that's not something you can... That's like... I don't know. That's wrong. That's like, that's like turning your body to oil and jumping in water. That's... [00:29:03]

Yeah, you're holding oil. It's like making yourself out to be only oil. You're trying to wade into the water of a community and that's how it works. (PAUSE) With Edgar (ph) and... (PAUSE) It's just something I could've been but never was.

THERAPIST: What's happened lately? What's...

CLIENT: Nothing. I mean...

THERAPIST: Is she still moving out?

CLIENT: Mm hmm. Yeah. [00:30:01]

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: Yeah. My old roommate was a cousin of mine who was three years older (inaudible at 00:30:35) when he moved into my place I said, "I don't want smoking in my house. We have two balconies. Feel free to use those." And he was surprised because we hadn't discussed this beforehand. In the past I had been comfortable with marijuana. I think it is in fact positive. It's a potentially positive influence depending on where you're at. [00:31:05]

But I haven't spoken to him in like seven years or something. He and I probably spoke like twelve times total but those were usually good experiences. Anyway, he moved in expecting me to be comfortable but I said, "You know, I don't want smoking in the house. Just, you know, do it outside." And to him, even though it's (inaudible at 00:311:41) you know, he tried to smoke inside maybe two or three times in the two years we lived together and, over a year and a half... I'd just be like, "It kind of smells like weed." [00:31:55]

And for me... I was always thinking like, you know, this guy thinks that I think there's something wrong with what he's doing. Obviously he'd be really... Like I can almost sense the knot in his chest. He thinks I'm judging what he's doing as wrong and that wasn't the case. I didn't feel. But at the same time I was sort of... I just knew that this was within the bounds of reason, that I could request that there was no smoking in the house. So I did. In the same way I think my landlord sort of requested that I not play guitar late at night and it was shocking to me because it is to me almost... It's something like a prayer especially late at night playing a song. [00:33:01]

And it was inconceivable to me that it could not be as important, or that someone else could so callously disregard or discard the validity of what I was doing.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I think that's similar to my experience with my cousin. So in that sense I suppose I didn't adopt the mode of the conqueror. I was just, I was just in charge of that situation. Now I understand the other way.

THERAPIST: Uh huh. Yeah.

CLIENT: But it was really hard. So in my mind when he was telling me to stop playing even though it was ten thirty on a Sunday night I was thinking, "What he's saying is reasonable." I knew that. But also I was... It was a turbulent emotion because I was thinking, you know, "Is this a power play? Why won't you just like stop nagging me?" [00:33:59]

I think this is legitimate. You shouldn't be able to text me at like any hour and like I have to read a stupid text and this snarky bullshit. It's just like my actions are to completely ignore which isn't easy to do once you've read something or to respond and text something. It's just like...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I even though like, like maybe his fiancé or his live in girl friend or maybe she liked my playing so he needed to get me to stop.

THERAPIST: He needed you to stop.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) But...

THERAPIST: Another way your song would have been seductive or won the (inaudible at 00:34:51).

CLIENT: Another way? What's the first? What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well the family reunion thing.

CLIENT: Oh, okay. Yeah. [00:34:59]

THERAPIST: Family (inaudible at 00:35:01)

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) Yeah. (PAUSE) But, yeah, I'm wondering if that's a condition of life that's maybe difficult to deal with is that generally and not just for me is that, you know, what we care about other people with whom we share our life or share experience, they don't care about.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: They just don't.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

(PAUSE) [00:36:00]

CLIENT: Where's perfume lady? Did she skip out?

THERAPIST: Oh no that's a different day. That's the Friday. Yeah.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Yeah, what?

CLIENT: Yeah, the sense of wanting (inaudible at 00:36:45) some sort of discreet challenge, discreet in sort of consolidated whole or, you know, a discreet challenge (inaudible at 00:36:55) Saturday night. [00:37:01]

But the woman of the house gave me two slices of blueberry pie and then I left. I thought the party could have gone on for another couple hours so I decided to just take a walk because I still had energy and I was... I just wanted to be stimulated in some way and so as I was walking across the street there was a group of about, you know, maybe somewhere between fourteen and twenty teenagers most of them black and I bumped one of them. Something happened as we were crossing. His shoulder sort of brushed backwards as we passed and so when he got to the other side of the street she said something like... I don't know what he said at first but he said, "I'll give you eight dollars for that pie." [00:38:01]

So I turned around and I saw the other end of the street (inaudible at 00:38:05) I said, "Eight dollars huh? That's quite a bit." And he said, "Two dollars." And I said, "I head eight dollars." And most of the gang had kept moving but this guy was facing me and one of his friends was sort of hanging around and so he said, "How about two dollars?" I said, "No, I heard eight dollars." And so we're both kind of... I'm standing erect. I don't know if he was slightly slouched. I was facing directly. He might have been facing slightly away. So, you know, eventually I don't think the kids had anything particular to do so about ten or so came back and decided to see what was going on and at that point, once they reached that sort of mass they crossed the street and they gathered around me in sort of a semicircle. So here I was with my pie and someone said, "What's going on here?" [00:38:55]

So I said, "Well, I heard that he wants eight dollars for this slice of pie." And they said, "It's just a quarter of a piece of pie. That's ridiculous. How much did it cost you?" I said, "I got it for free." They said, "Well, two dollars you'd still make a profit." I said, "Well, this pie is very important to me so I want eight dollars for it." One of the kids said, "Give it here. I want to see it." I said, "No, you can't see it." So here they are just gathered around me and some more walked up. It was... I mean, I felt weird in the situation but I also was not afraid. I was sort of eager to engage in any whatsoever and of course the (inaudible at 00:39:41) was just around the corner like I said. But eventually they, I think they talked to the person who had been bumped and they came over and apologized and shook my hand. We left it at that. But I... I don't know. [00:39:57]

Like I hear a story on NPR about the Chicago public school where there's like shootings and kids killing each other and I want to go teach there not because I want to help anybody but because I want to be in the middle of that. I want to experience, you know, not that I want experience. I want to tangle with real challenges, death, killing, conflict.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: What about the, what about the boy? What about the boy that you brushed into? What did they... How did you feel about him? What was...

CLIENT: Well, I didn't feel anything towards him.

THERAPIST: But you wanted... Did you feel like you were looking... You wanted some confrontation out of the...

CLIENT: There was a confrontation. [00:41:01]

I wasn't... I mean, there was a confrontation. The rest was how I responded to it. (PAUSE) (LAUGHTER)

(PAUSE) [00:42:00]

THERAPIST: What...

CLIENT: I was just really frightened about it.

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: But, yeah, I'm still ambivalent about the efficacy of taking on women. Like I got to a certain step where they appear to like me and then I sort of bow out or I linger in ambivalence or in sending sort of mixed... I don't know. Just being in sort of mixed state. [00:43:21]

Possibly not knowing how to proceed but also not knowing whether or not I want to proceed because I... (PAUSE) Because (inaudible at 00:43:45) the only thing I remember of other relationships to women besides my cousins and in maybe, you know, one or two girls but real relationships all I remember is pain. [00:44:05]

I mean, at least that's why I suppose (inaudible at 00:44:11) I might be a little gay too. I don't know. Because when I'm watching this basketball things it occurs to me it's like it's some sort of homoerotic activity sort of especially the fantasy. I started the fantasy basketball.

THERAPIST: Oh yeah. You were telling me.

CLIENT: Yeah. I signed up for ten teams. I'm first in like six of them. There are six leagues. But, yeah, that's useful (inaudible at 00:44:41) talking about like words, language, you know, the real value of a player and the game and the statistical representation of that and the discrepancy of things. [00:44:55]

So it's a lot, a lot of like what you want and what you think you want and how those or what you need and what you know about what you need and the discrepancy there.

THERAPIST: And the ambivalence you feel about women and your interest or... Is there someone you're thinking of?

CLIENT: yeah, I mean, I have an example. I guess there was a...

(PAUSE) [00:46:00]

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:46:11)

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) I don't know what you're (inaudible at 00:46:11)

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: Did I tell you about... There was a... I just had this hang up because you shouldn't kiss and tell. I mean, we didn't kiss but it was the same sort of quality of like talking about something before it's come to any fruition.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: But, I mean, there was this girl this past Sunday and she was squared up with me, meaning we had each other's attention and, you know, I said, I said, "You know, I can take your e-mail address and add it to this meeting group I have. My phone's inside so, you know, you can, you know, I can get it and come back out here or you can follow me," and she just said, "I'll follow you." [00:47:15]

So at that point, I mean, I could have done, I could have taken that anywhere. I could have taken that anywhere. But I sort of stayed with the safe thing and just took her e-mail address. She said, "Do you want my name? Do you want me to write that down too?" I said, "Sure." She writes that down. You know, at that point she's waiting for my cue. I kind of (inaudible at 00:47:39) where do I take this? But I'm content to just leave it even though I... The sex would be nice.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. But you don't know what you want. [00:47:59]

CLIENT: Yeah. it's probably part and parcel of experience.

THERAPIST: The experience?

CLIENT: Mm hmm.

THERAPIST: In what way? Sexual?

CLIENT: Yeah, sure.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: And experience is an experience.

THERAPIST: Like what you would do with her? (PAUSE) Is that too blunt?

(PAUSE) [00:49:00]

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:49:15) I was going to sleep and I was getting in that mode where I was thinking, "Maybe (inaudible at 00:49:21) probably." You know? And I heard this voice. So my bed's in the corner of the room and there's like a little space towards the wall and front that area I perceived a voice which I took to be my mother's sort of like counting or something. I sort of like was drifting off to sleep. she was saying numbers or something and I was just... I don't know if I was... I was like half reading, half falling asleep. I don't know if it was this sort of voice there like gibberish and I could listen to her or not really but I hadn't been but it's still there. [00:50:01]

That was maybe... I don't know. Two minutes. I had no idea. I said, "Wow, when I went to sleep last night I had this experience where I..." It was like this gasp or this moan or something or... Not a moan. It was like a cry of pain sort of drawn out. I awoke from this but I was still asleep. I was in the middle of a REM cycle. I could even feel my eyes like moving. I couldn't wake up. But there was like this mentally fractured... I've never had anything like this before but it was like fractured thoughts and like the sound of the person's pain... Part of me was thinking it was (inaudible at 00:50:55) I have to get up and like realize that this is happening and other parts of thoughts. You know how your mind incorporates sound into your dreams. [00:51:11]

It was there and part of me was not part of me and the other thing that occurred to me was like if (inaudible at 00:51:19) is or was pregnant. I think I said like I don't want anyone else having sex with her because something of me is in her and I don't deny the possibility of some sort of connection there. But this was, it was in my head but it was separate and just an experience of pain, not emotional but like a psychic separation and I've experienced before and I've tried to... Well, I won't go into that. But like a psychic separation. Like control and not control, unity and complete divorce. [00:51:59]

It was strange and I don't know how many minutes later I actually woke up but I just resolved to stop trying to experience this consciously. But I thought I should share that in case I become psychotic or something.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Well, you know, one thing I'm thinking about though is that in general I guess what I gleamed today is something about the (inaudible at 00:52:31) getting close to people and I'm thinking, "It must be kind of taking hold in here in some way too." Like how much you feel there like, "How much do I want to talk about this or that and what happens if I know about what you're saying and what am I going to do about that stuff."

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: How am I going to be? [00:52:55]

CLIENT: How will your holding that affect my...

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. And in some way kind of concerned about that like trying to really... I mean, clearly you're wanting to tell me about these experiences but at the same time safeguard and protect something at the same time.

CLIENT: Yes. Yeah. I think I'm very, I won't say empathic but impressionable to other people's views.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And once they're stated I can't dismiss them at all even when the guy's crazy and he's saying (inaudible at 00:53:35) in the world.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I can't just like throw that out in the trash. I still think it's probably valid. But...

THERAPIST: You listen to it. You take it in.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Not something you can just... Yeah. Okay. Friday.

CLIENT: Alright. [00:53:57]

THERAPIST: Well what are you doing...

CLIENT: I don't know if I should shake your hand or not. I don't know if you feel comfortable with it.

THERAPIST: If you want.

CLIENT: I will.

THERAPIST: Seems to be a bit of our ritual, right?

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Okay. Thanks. Bye.

END TRANSCRIPT