TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

(PAUSE) [00:01:00]

CLIENT: Got some caffeine hence the... (LAUGHTER)

(PAUSE) [00:02:00]

CLIENT: There's something hard about not being able to talk to my roommates. They've been sort of my foundation. (PAUSE) I think not being able... I mean, I don't talk to them. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Has it been sort of a self imposed thing? Yeah? (PAUSE) Yeah.

(PAUSE) [00:03:00]

CLIENT: I found myself sort of thinking things once like trying to perform for the case where perhaps they look into my room and see something on the table that's unusual. [00:04:01]

I mean, that's not unusual... In the absence of any like natural context I just... I thought the... It's like I can't quite extricate myself from relationship to them. There's no way that, you know, their, whatever imprint their existence had on my psyche can be eradicated.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: And...

(PAUSE) [00:04:57]

CLIENT: I think from the story I've told here it would seem in context I could justify but at the same time I think from my perspective I have a certain particularity in terms of our relationships each to a certain point which is a basic point for most people just like an amicable friendship. But I sort of, I can't accord with or I can't accept being treated in certain ways by people and... I mean, I could accept it if they're just idiots. There's somebody who's, I don't know, like pedestrian or something, like someone on the street side. So I mean someone who is just like a passerby. [00:05:59]

I'm not sure what I mean or who I mean. But...

THERAPIST: Somebody who's more or less ignorant?

CLIENT: Somebody who is... I guess the other category is not pedestrian, somebody who is...

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: Somebody who is, who I feel so comfortable with... Like I explained, I cannot talk... Like I found some relationships in colleges and other places frustrating because I felt respected but I never felt the intimacy. Those are very different things. Also the harder I worked the more I felt separate from other people in that context. [00:06:59]

THERAPIST: You felt... I'm sorry. You felt respected but not...

CLIENT: No intimacy.

THERAPIST: Intimacy.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) But at a certain stage, I mean, I get comfortable enough with people and then I push them back. I think I have a sense... Like I ran into a group of boys. There were four of us and there were sort of the leaders (inaudible at 00:07:59) team as it was of like a hundred kids or whatever. [00:08:03]

And two of them were into drugs. One was just sort of, not just, but he was upper middle class and advanced for his age. I feel bad that... It was sort of interesting because they weren't the... At that time, they were into misbehaving. And that was something I... I mean, I had been perfect in the previous grade. I had been perfect throughout most of my school time and they were sort of into misbehaving and being obnoxious and sort of exploring the (inaudible at 00:08:53) that seventh grade boys do. There were drugs. Like one of them was a marijuana dealer. Two of them did ecstasy in the library. They asked me if I wanted to do it too. [00:09:05]

THERAPIST: This was seventh grade?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Fast movers huh?

CLIENT: Very. But at some point during the year I made some sort of suggestion about something. There was some sort of course of action under debate and it might have been the creation of a craft project we were doing or it might have been just some abstract talk. But I made a suggestion and one I think I made again. The leader of the group said something like, "Oh, (inaudible at 00:09:45) you're not that smart," or something along those lines. That for me was unacceptable. So (inaudible at 00:09:57) that's it.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:10:01]

CLIENT: That was unacceptable and to them it was just a little thing.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: A little thing.

THERAPIST: What was it like for you though? What was it like for you?

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: I guess it was... It was uncomfortable and I think they probably teased me a little bit trying to get me back involved. It was... I know it wasn't an easy process from like an outsiders point of view. Like because they... These were people I had been spending time with and they were (inaudible at 00:11:03) for a little while. [00:11:07]

Yeah a little bit I was more careful of them (inaudible at 00:11:11) trying to do is just work and work with, you know, work with, you know, work at my studies. You know? But for me in my mind it was just a, you know, it was obvious the course of action. I wish I could be as certain in all sorts of relationships but at the same time I question whether it's been healthy for me or whether... Because I... There's something too just to a very easy going interaction with people around you that serves as the foundation for trust in people everywhere and a shared experience. [00:12:11]

I have no shared experience. I mean, it's... Nothing's really worth doing without being able to share with someone. I could climb Everest but it wouldn't matter if nobody else knew about it or I wasn't able (inaudible at 00:12:35) or if I couldn't communicate with other people I couldn't (inaudible at 00:12:45) it would be completely meaningless if you couldn't communicate it.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, it seems what you're describing is the cost of severing ties and in some way, you know, when you've severed some of the ties... It sounds like you've justified in doing so you feel there's something that you miss. You lose out as well. [00:13;09]

CLIENT: Yeah. I... Like I said, before, I kind of... There's probably to get to the bottom of everything and just work it out. I mean, that's how I am. I want to deal with things forthrightly even if it offends other people or if it's risky. But... (PAUSE) Like I said, I don't feel like I could get to the bottom of it if I tried. Nevertheless, I... You know, despite my best efforts just to completely shut out the existence of my roommates, I... I grow suspicious at times like my right to know like if what I've done is justified, like shutting them out or... It's entirely possible that I've formulated this whole idea. [00:14:05]

You know, no exclusion of the... I don't know what to say. I still don't even know why it bothers me.

THERAPIST: Well also if it actually happened.

CLIENT: Right. Why would it bother me if it happened?

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Well, it sounds like you feel wronged.

CLIENT: Yeah and I don't want to feel wronged. (inaudible at 00:14:43)

THERAPIST: Yeah, you don't. You don't acknowledge it. Well, it seems like you shouldn't feel wronged?

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, I... It's weird. Well, I didn't care that much about (inaudible at 00:14:55). Yeah, I really didn't and... (PAUSE) [00:15:05]

It's not just sex. I mean, like dogs, they piss everywhere to mark their territory. So they have their fucking territory and the act of sex sort of more connected. You know? Your excretion of fluid from the penis is like a saying, "This is mine." Somehow that transfers into sex as well. You know, when you mate.

THERAPIST: Well, certainly with the idea that you might have impregnated Cleo (ph) and that they might be doing that.

CLIENT: Yeah. Right.

THERAPIST: Or be in there so to speak.

CLIENT: Yeah. I have a very clear sense that the night before the pregnancy test that they had sex but I can't say for sure. [00:15:57]

I mean, I woke up again at night and my first thought was... It was almost like, "Oh, Cleo is with Edgar," or something like that. Something like envy, I guess, just a shout of envy.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I went to the bathroom. I had to take a shower. (inaudible at 00:16:27) I was sitting there and I was... I think I was listening very closely because they were in there and I was like, "No. I... I'm beyond this." I mean, whether or not anything's going on, it doesn't really concern me. I mean, these people are not only (inaudible at 00:16:47) but they're beneath me. They're not... There's no connection there whatsoever. It's just... You know, I have to focus on my own business. Then I also realized that it's funny like some (inaudible at 00:17:03) so I started listening again. [00:17:07]

I had to sort of go through that process in my head two more times and I just decided...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Well it's like I just look in the mirror to see maybe what's going on. So I did. I... (LAUGHTER) I went and got a camera because if it was happening I just wanted to take a picture to (inaudible at 00:17:25) and also because...

THERAPIST: What would you do with the picture?

CLIENT: Oh I see. I would probably send it to Cleo' fiancé.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: But, yeah. I just walked in and it was just Edgar. He was just in there and he was like, "Hey, what's going on?"

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: And I felt... Afterwards, I had such a clear sense of both how I shouldn't be focusing on this or questioning this, what's going on... Like I said, it's just about me. [00:17:59]

As I've said before, though I don't say that sort of phrase, it seems like the quote, you know, the possible (inaudible at 00:18:17) could be something just created in my head to get me to a more or rather more comfortable instead of just self loathing or, you know, not having to deal with any of the trappings of intimacy or affection or trust in a relationship, just sort of simmering, yeah, simmering myself in those ambiguities.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And that's what's really fascinating is that, I mean, I'm not really attached to Cleo and there have been other girls in my past who I haven't really been attached and yet, after separation from them, something happens to me where I get into this like victim mode or this like... [00:19:07]

It's unbelievable. I don't know what to chalk it up to. I mean, whether...

THERAPIST: None, yeah.

CLIENT: If my roommates are excluded, that's one thing. But I sound like my mother. You know, she would...

THERAPIST: Oh yeah.

CLIENT: My mother when she would visit here when she had cancer and she had this sort of bandana over her head and people would laugh at the next table and she'd say... My (inaudible at 00:19:31) was a teacher there and she'd say, "You know, those kids are making fun of me," and she believed it and I believed it. But like, reflecting on it, I don't think they were laughing at her at all. I think they were just laughing about something independent. She would look really (inaudible at 00:19:47). I could see... I think he believed her too and I wasn't sure what to do. (inaudible at 00:19:59) [00:20:01]

They were just laughing at the next table.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I have just been waking up in the middle of the night or at three AM, four AM, you know, like three or four hours after I go to sleep, like wide awake, not just like easing up out of sleep, like right awake and my first thought is, "They're together."

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it eats at me somehow maybe just because I don't have anything better to do. But it's like I'm eating myself in that sense.

THERAPIST: Well, I think it... I mean, just what... The last point I think is probably making even more crazy maybe because you're... I was thinking that there's no escape from it. It's not like, you know... Especially if you're in the house, in the place all day, that's all you've got to think about. I mean, it's... How do you escape it? But aside from that, though, you're talking about a feeling of, I think of being really wrong that you feel. [00:21:04]

I don't know. It's almost like they call it being fucked with in some way being messed with, being really...

CLIENT: Yeah. The sin is that they would think they're better than me and that's the underlying thing. That's... I mean, it's true that Cleo does think that. I mean, she... (PAUSE) And, I mean, and on the... If we look at this from the, broaden the scope of it, I mean, she was... I recognized her as the end of our sexual relations, that she was doing what she should be doing. Like she was looking for a new job. She was looking to like move out and get health insurance and... I think moving in with her fiancé was also her (inaudible at 00:21:49) also kind of a step backwards but, from my point of view. But the, the other things... I mean, she was, she was systematically pursuing a way to change and improve her situation. [00:22:03]

You know, I wasn't really doing any of that. I may even be... Well, that's not true. I'm not incapable of it but I certainly haven't done anything like that in a long time, in a long time and... Yeah.

THERAPIST: So in a kind of way it felt like a, there was a condescension from her.

CLIENT: Well, that showed through in a couple, in sort of like non verbal gestures and just past actions. Like she drank my whole box of wine, like a Franzia (ph) thing. She drank like four liters of wine and she was like, "Don't worry. I'll replace it." Then she just gave me like a 750 milliliter bottle. [00:23:01]

(inaudible at 00:23:03) the boxed wine is like five to seven times as much wine and she just replaced it with a bottle and there are other things. Like... I can't think of examples.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But there are little ways. She would say things like... This would big at me where she would say, you know, "I'm worried about you. Like I'm worried you'll always be lonely." Or, you know, "You'd be a great boyfriend. Boy, you'd be great." Or, you know, "There are so many things I know what to do with you." It's like... I don't, you know... The lonely one gets me because I am quite lonely. But to have someone else be able to see that and anticipate as I sometimes fear that I won't be able to establish the connections... [00:24:01]

That's sort of threatening I guess.

THERAPIST: Ah. Threatening, huh? Is it a feeling of criticism? Is that...

CLIENT: Well, it seemed apt but it's also... Like who is she to say that. You know?

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: It's...

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:24:31) as I especially want. Like I feel like Cleo is or was I feel like she was beneath my dignity.

THERAPIST: Yes. Yeah.

CLIENT: But somehow there's something almost divine about that process she brought about with me where she brought me to a place where there weren't judgments and there weren't sort of patriarchal or like... What is it? Like authoritative standards. It was a place where you were just there with another person. [00:25:11]

It's sort of drift through their qualities, drift through their character, I guess and there wasn't, there was no real importance attached to it or lack of importance and yet somehow, in the loss of that, it becomes like a tremendous, like a neurotic knot in the mind's muscle, like wanting to get that back, that statelessness. [00:26:05]

THERAPIST: Where it didn't matter kind of what... I mean, it was just two people together connecting.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, I can look at Cleo and say, "Like, here's someone who doesn't demonstrate for me (inaudible at 00:26:15) insincere, not all that attractive, you know, not terribly clever. But then, you know, you connect with that person. It's just a person. It's a person. It's not someone with like a battery of values that you can sum up or something. It's a person. It's a human being and... (PAUSE) I don't know if she picked up on this but I'm not sure I can explain that that easily. There was another thing that was hard that was one of her criticisms is, "You're always judging people too much and you don't realize that they're judging you too." Which I thought was bullshit because, like I said, she said (inaudible at 00:27:01) unacceptable. [00:27:03]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But she might have meant it in a more general sense. She certainly felt entitled to say such a thing. She walked into the room and said something like that. I just wanted to shut the door in her face but, you know, maybe there's something to it. The worst one was one that mirrored my mother's comments which is that I'm selfish. Like she needs something and she has this problem and I don't want to deal with it so I'm selfish. I mean, it's her fucking problem. She wants to put it on me and I don't want to do what she wants to make me do and so what comes out is, "You're selfish. All you do is think about yourself." It comes out because I'm not thinking of her. It's just like maddening. The kind of thing like my mother would say all the time. [00:28:01]

I mean, I feel like... I guess what I...

THERAPIST: Yeah. No wonder it eats at you.

CLIENT: Why?

THERAPIST: Well, that comment she made, the selfishness. Really.

CLIENT: Because I'm trying to establish really being comfortable with myself. You know, when I'm pursuing things and sort of looking at things entrepreneurially, I feel pretty good about myself. Like I feel good. Like I'm helping myself and by helping myself, I'm helping other people. But that comment was just, it just ripped it away. And so you have those collection, that battery of criticisms or comments. They're sort of turning around in my head and then you try and add to that, in addition to the one that I use her too much or I use her too physically and, you know, I never spend any quality time with her or shit like that. [00:29:05]

Then a little later, she said, "I avoid spending quality time with you because it's going to be a temptation." So you add beneath these criticisms and various explanations for like the fact that she's probably seeing Edgar at the same time and then you wonder if... (LAUGHTER) You know, I've been sort of tangling with these criticisms and it's like are they at all valid if she's been having sex with another man? Because they could just be... I don't know. Just a bottomless excuses or just what it feels like it just that she's opposed to me every step of the way.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:29:53]

CLIENT: Like railing against me for whatever reason and just keeping me at a distance, I guess. For whatever, you know, whatever the means, the object is to keep me at a distance and... But keep like a very sentimental relationship or the appearance of a sentimental relationship going so that, you know, if she needs something or if she wants someone to talk to or so she can feel in control. You know? She has this guy she can talk to and... But, like I said, I've plotted this out beforehand. Like every single thing that had happened and maybe the plot is continuing in my head but it's not even really happening. But it's still, it's hurting me.

THERAPIST: Oh yeah. Yeah. [00:30:57]

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:30:59) we talked about my views about being a (inaudible at 00:31:01) he sort of made me realize, I just sort of profane everything. Did I share this already? I just profane everything. Like I... You know, I contend that institutions certainly have their uses.

THERAPIST: I think you mentioned... Yeah. You did mention this. Go on.

CLIENT: That was one of you points too was that I... There's something about doing what people don't expect along the lines of who I am or...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...take hold of an identity. But, I mean, that's, it's a very frantic kind of shiftlessness. It's an endless... It gives me (inaudible at 00:31:51). It's pissing in the bathroom with the door open.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Or parking wherever.

THERAPIST: Yes. [00:32:01]

The kind of (inaudible at 00:32:07)

CLIENT: Just attacking against the current.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: Snake eyes.

THERAPIST: Well, I wonder too if there's anything you're reacting to something I might have done or said or like that made you feel like you needed to, like you needed to in some way, like you needed to.

CLIENT: To do what?

THERAPIST: Like you kind of pushed back against me or to do something to...

CLIENT: Oh, you mean pissing or...

THERAPIST: Yeah. Or pissing or parking or whatever that you feel you need to kind of...

CLIENT: Well, that one I didn't expect that one to come out. I was just in a rush. I was also like... Well, that's sort of an assertion of like I know this isn't correct but I'm doing it. So... I wouldn't (inaudible at 00:32:59) to you personally at all. [00:33:01]

The parking maybe like saying I can't (inaudible at 00:33:05).

THERAPIST: What'd you think? That I was obnoxious?

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, I come in here.

THERAPIST: But it felt... It felt some way... Like...

CLIENT: Well, that's the other thing. It's almost like I'm excluded here. I'm not sure if that's true.

THERAPIST: No, no. I certainly need to know that. Yeah.

CLIENT: Well, parking's a practical necessity and when something's practical for me and it may not be totally acceptable but it doesn't really hurt anybody then I'm all for it. [00:33:57]

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: So that's where I come from in that. I don't... I'm not... I've come to a point where I'm not really mindful of phantom standards.

THERAPIST: Yeah and so (inaudible at 00:34:19).

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:34:27) A phantom standard to me is kind of like... The light's red and nobody's coming for like a minute but you just sit there. That's a phantom standard because it makes no sense. You just... You know, you're... I guess you're paying your tax and your time for the sake of order and civilization but it's a waste of time.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: I wish I had this (inaudible at 00:34:57).

THERAPIST: You wish that you had, sorry, what? [00:34:59]

CLIENT: Less (inaudible at 00:35:05)

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER) (PAUSE) But I'm wondering too was there anything in the way that I put it or said it to you or that you felt that... (PAUSE) Or just something about me in general that you're feeling... Yeah.

CLIENT: Well, with that there is like a tiered system. It's like, taking a higher stance, I can park back there but, you know, you're going to get me in trouble if you park back there so I'm just going to get out of your way. [00:35:59]

I felt like I could've kept parking back there without you getting in trouble or, you know, probably really inconveniencing anybody, nothing more than somebody looking at my car and going, "Oh, what's that doing here?" But, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah and then I had kind of stood behind, "You're going to get me in trouble."

CLIENT: Yeah. You never stated that but I think that was your concern.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So... But I haven't yet. I'm doing the same thing next door. So...

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:36:49)

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:36:57]

CLIENT: So for the first few days I've been pretty good and just, you know, they don't exist. But after awhile, I need to relate to someone. I can't just be like, you know, stuck in a desert. That's the way it occurred to me. In fact, I was like my adult life is just erred in terms of like so hard to find any real intimacy or relationships. It's just kind of like erred experience and, you know, back and, you know, exile even though I had a very (inaudible at 00:37:31) at first that's it's hard to keep the wheels rolling without, you know... It's hard to keep the blinders on without thinking, "Oh, maybe I should talk to Edgar about this," or is this right? You know, I have this inner certainty that they had sex probably multiple times that they kept like a complicit secret from me and sort of lorded it over me privately. [00:38:01]

And I'm also aware that that could just be completely fabricated and I'm also aware that it's difficult for me to learn so that I might be inclined to question my stance. So, in other words, I think I need to find people who respect me or who are friends with me for who I am and somehow can respect me too to my own exacting standard but I don't know if I can. (LAUGHTER) And it's getting difficult to get along without them so I would be inclined to question it subconsciously the legitimacy of my, you know, my communicating them from my life. I've masturbated like five times in the day two days. I took up watching porn again. It's terrible. [00:39:07]

I mean, I...

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:39:15)

CLIENT: Hmm?

THERAPIST: It's some sort of (inaudible at 00:39:17)

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) To sex you mean by that?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:39:35)

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: I knew I had to like find someone else to make Cleo jealous. I had like an hourglass. I knew I needed to close that, to convert that thought, even though, you know, in my mind the thought is pretty well important that Cleo is (inaudible at 00:40:03) to keep that sort of foundation of desire there for me. [00:40:07]

So like I said once I took a train to here, had to go somewhere, took the train back, got a girl's number. But I never pressed it. It's also possible though I've conceived and extrapolated, explicated how wonderful it is to have this value of this space where nothing's right or wrong. It's possible that I do feel, you know, based on what I've done, I'm uncertain what other people do. You know? I've, I slept with someone's fiancé and also rubbed it in my roommate's face to, because, because, because I felt that pain of having a girl taken from me. I rubbed it in his face. [00:41:01]

So it's also possible by these sort of acts that I wish I weren't going soft. I mean, if I were tough, I wouldn't be worried. I can't really trust other people because of the things I've done lately. So that's possible.

THERAPIST: Well, you know, I mean, this is the simple thing to say at the end but there's a lot here. (LAUGHTER) A lot to all this. But it also seems like it's getting deep about what relationships have been like for you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean, what I hear is one thing that you can feel very wronged at times and it really breaks your sense of like a, of intimacy. It fractures your sense of intimacy and closeness. It really... Something about what happens there really drives a wedge in between you and the other person to the point where you're like, "I don't want anything to do with this person." [00:42:15]

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:42:23) I was struck by this sense of like the other side of Cleo which on one hand she's just like this easy going, like, "Come on, have sex. It's fun." My friend said when I told him he said it quite well. He said, "Well, obviously this girl has a thing if she has a fiancé and she's fooling around with more than one guy. It's like something she needs." So why should I take offense? That's a question I'd like to answer in the future. I don't know why I take offense to it. [00:43:01]

THERAPIST: Alright. We'll pick up on Tuesday. What? What are you thinking?

CLIENT: Oh just the pissing. I don't want to have to clean up after it. I don't like the... (inaudible at 00:43:21)

THERAPIST: At least we dealt with it here.

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