TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

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THERAPIST: No. Yes. Okay! (chuckles) So how are you? How was your week?

CLIENT: Um, I'm fine, and my week was okay.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I went and got my hair done on Saturday.

THERAPIST: It looks very nice!

CLIENT: (laughs) Thank you! And... I relaxed yesterday; I didn't do anything. (therapist affirms) Only thing I did was cook dinner and watch TV. (therapist affirms) I took a nap, too.

THERAPIST: Hey! This is new for you! (client affirms and chuckles) So I guess your homework of doing something to take care of yourself...

CLIENT: Oh, yeah! So that's good! You told me to do something for myself; I did.

THERAPIST: So, how did that feel?

CLIENT: Good!

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, so, and then, I said, "Oh, wait!" My appointment, you know, I thought today was the 12th. You know, and I said, "Oh, wait! No, no, no! It was the 11th!"

THERAPIST: It's the 11th today. (client affirms and chuckles) Yeah. Sorry to... yeah.

CLIENT: Oh, no! That's okay! You know, and... I just left work and here I am! [00:01:02]

THERAPIST: Okay!

CLIENT: Yeah, so... I don't know.

THERAPIST: Why do you think it's difficult to kind of fit in time for yourself?

CLIENT: Oh, because it seems like there is always something to do!

THERAPIST: (chuckles) Like?

CLIENT: You know, I mean, I could say, or I could pre-plan and say that, "Okay, Saturday, I'm going to do this and do that." But then, by the time Saturday rolls around, then you find yourself doing other things. You either have to run somebody here or somebody needs to go there or... you know. Then I always do my granddad's medicine on Saturday, so I know I have to do that.

THERAPIST: When you say his medicine...?

CLIENT: Um, I pre-fill his pill boxes and, you know, call and make all of the arrangements with the pharmacy, you know, change medications that need to be changed, or you know, stuff like that. So, and then, whatever he needs cleaned up, you know, I take care of that. Then, pretty much after that, I probably drop my sisters off at home, then I go home, and then I get ready to cook my dinner and you know, all that stuff. (therapist affirms) [00:02:11]

Yeah, then by the time I sit down, oh, I would say... I eat my dinner and then I'm too tired (chuckles), I'm way too tired to do anything else, you know? So now, I'm just ready to watch a little TV, now that school is out. (therapist affirms) So you know...

THERAPIST: What was different about last week, that you were able to squeeze a bit of time in for yourself?

CLIENT: Um... I just took it!

THERAPIST: Well!

CLIENT: Yeah, I did! I just took it! You know? I thought about what you said. You know, you were like, "It's okay to slow down." You know, I read the little things you gave me and they said, "Take some time for yourself." I'm like, "Okay, but what would I do?" You know, and I realized I was tired (therapist affirms), so I was sitting up on the computer yesterday and I'm like, "God! Okay, what am I looking up?" I'm always checking my e-mail, my school e-mail, and I said, "Well, okay." [00:03:07]

Then I was going to try to start writing on the book that I'm working on (therapist responds), and before I knew it, I felt myself just (sighs)... And I said, "Okay, you know what? Just go take a nap!" (therapist affirms) You know? And usually, I don't sleep in the daytime, because that would give me like an instant headache, for some reason. I would wake up with a migraine. (therapist affirms) You know, and, but this time, I laid down. I said, "I'm going to watch a little TV." (therapist responds) I know I had the nod off, you know, because when I woke up, I said, "Oh, man! It's 3:30! I have to cook dinner!" You know? That was it!

THERAPIST: So, and how did it feel, to take time for yourself?

CLIENT: Oh, man! It felt good! You know, I feel... like I'm rested. (therapist responds) You know.

THERAPIST: Just that little bit of time.

CLIENT: Yeah, just that little bit of time.

THERAPIST: Wow! How amazing is that?

CLIENT: You know! That's good! Yeah! So, and then... well, my sister told me that my cousin's funeral was today. And I said, "What a dog!" (ph) I said, "Well, okay, I can't make the funeral, you know, but..."

THERAPIST: Did you tell me what happened with that? [00:04:11]

CLIENT: Um... I don't...think so.

THERAPIST: Yeah, what happened?

CLIENT: Well, he moved (therapist affirms) and, from my understanding, what my sister's told me, was that he was shot by the police...

THERAPIST: Oh, boy.

CLIENT: ...and I asked them, "Well, what happened?" Because, you know, he's, from what I remember, he is a quiet, you know, he'd take care of his family, he'd work. You know? Just a family man. They said it was a home invasion. I said, "Now, did someone invade his home or was he invading someone's home?" They don't know. You know, they said, it doesn't seem like he would do it, but we're not there, so how... I mean, you know, people change over time and... So, I mean, I hope it wasn't him, you know, but that's what happened and...

THERAPIST: I'm sorry to hear about your cousin.

CLIENT: Yeah. Thank you. You know, they moved his body back here so, they're at the funeral now, you know, and everything. So I said, well, you know, my sisters went, my granddad, my uncles, you know and everything, so. You know, it's pretty okay. [00:05:12]

THERAPIST: Did you want to go?

CLIENT: Um... I did. You know, but... I felt like this was more important (therapist affirms) because I said, well my other family members are there, you know, and we weren't like close-close, you know? He was just, I know he's my cousin, I know him, you know and everything, but it wasn't like immediate.

THERAPIST: And do you feel okay with not going?

CLIENT: Yeah, I feel okay with not going.

THERAPIST: Good. I just wanted to check, you know, because I think this is another example, where you let somebody else take the wheel for a minute. (client affirms) It doesn't have to be you.

CLIENT: Right! That felt good, you know? (therapist affirms) It felt good today for me to tell my sister, "Well, you know...," because I would have tried to maneuver what I have to do to accommodate somebody else. You know, and I had to tell her, I said, "Well, you know, maybe try Cousin Elsa (sp) or you know, somebody or..." I know they could have rode the bus, but it's so hot, they don't, you know, you have to do what you have to do, if it's something you really feel you need to do (therapist affirms), you know. Me, I would have been on a bus! (therapist affirms) But... I felt good with that, you know? I got up this morning and I went to work, you know, and I only cut an hour from, you know, work. I know coming here is important, because this is something for myself. [00:06:30]

THERAPIST: Counseling.

CLIENT: Yes. You know. And that's what I did.

THERAPIST: Well, good for you! What's changing for you? Because clearly, something is.

CLIENT: Well, I thought about what you said. You know, when you told me that I have to, you know, take some time for me. You know, and I know you asked me the first day, you said, "What brought me here?" And I couldn't tell you. Then I said, "Well, it's because...," then I thought about it, it's like, "I'm trying to figure out who I really am," you know? Because if you're trying to do so many different things for other people, you don't even know who you really are, you know? I don't know, I just, I think about it every day! I am so serious! [00:07:11]

THERAPIST: Think about what every day?

CLIENT: I think about coming here and talking with you. You know, and then I try to analyze everything and say, "Well, okay, what was different for me when I went?" You know and everything and, "How did I feel, you know, and how do I feel now?" Then I asked myself, "What is it that I want? You know, and what is it that I need to do to get it?"

THERAPIST: What have you come up with?

CLIENT: And I've come up with... Okay, and I came up with this yesterday, while I was making dinner (therapist affirms and chuckles) and I was telling myself, "Well, okay. Relevance is very important to me," you know and...

THERAPIST: Relevance.

CLIENT: Yes. You know, and to not just... to not just be a body to just take up space and you're not contributing anything. That'd bother me, you know? And I said, "Okay, so what is it that I want to do?" I was talking it over with my mother-in-law, and I was telling her that when I used to work for the mountain, I rode with this guy (I was driving the truck and delivering water) (therapist affirms, client chuckles) and I rode with this guy who was young guy. He was a preacher. And I didn't believe him! [00:08:20]

You know, because I said, "Most preachers..." Hey! I've met, they're older guys and they've been there, done that; they know their stuff. I'm thinking, I'm like, "You're my age! You're not a preacher!" You know, and then I thought about it. I watched his moving (ph) one day and I said, "Hmm, young preacher; it's like, yeah, maybe he's up and coming." I said, "Okay."

He told me something about myself and I was wondering, "How did he come up with that in such a short time of knowing me?" He told me, he said, "You have the personality of a million." He said that I could be like a counselor or you could be a (how did he say it?) like a... Oh, I'm trying to think of the word he said... I could be a... (pause) Oh, dog! Like an inspirational speaker. You know, he's like, "You have that voice. You have that passion." [00:09:12]

I looked at him and I said, "What? How do you come up with that?" You know, I just rode with you for like, what, a week! Then he said, "Oh, you could learn a lot about a person, you know, if you just pay attention." I was kind of shocked.

THERAPIST: What about that stayed with you?

CLIENT: Well, because I have a love for people, you know. I love to do whatever it takes to help them. It doesn't matter what the situation is, if I feel like I could, maybe just a kind word or you know, just a hug even, you know, or something. You know, just sit there and be quiet and just be the shoulder, you know? I'm here to listen.

THERAPIST: Where do you think that comes from for you?

CLIENT: Um... (pause) I don't know. I mean, I know I'm back with the "I don't know." (chuckles) But, to be honest, I'm really not sure. I just think that... that's part of who I am, you know. I think that if anything was to change in my life, you know, that part would stay with me. [00:10:19]

THERAPIST: The wanting to help people.

CLIENT: The wanting to help people, yeah. You know, then my cousins, you know, they're more like my brothers, and they're... You know, when they talk to me like, I can go to them with anything, you know. We used to, like the older cousin, we used to call each other on the phone and I could just be sitting down there, writing something. It may not make sense to me, but it's what's in my head, so I write it down. Then I'll call him, I'd say, "I need you to critique this for me. Tell me, does it make sense, you know, because I don't even understand it. I wrote it, but I don't understand it." Then, he'll tell me, he'd say, "You know what? You have a gift!" He said, "You don't even know it!" But I can't figure it out!

THERAPIST: Can't figure out...?

CLIENT: What it is! I mean like, okay, from the guy at Ice...

THERAPIST: What your gift is?

CLIENT: Yeah! Like, okay, the guy from the mountain tell me, you know, "You make people want to listen to you when you talk, you know and they can feel what you're saying and it's genuine and..." I'm trying to understand, okay, how did he come up with that? Then, for my cousins, you know, to always, tell me, "You know, people would love to listen to you. I love to hear when you talk, and I love to see what you've written or I love to..." And I'm like, well, I even don't understand it! [00:11:31]

THERAPIST: Tell me about what confuses you about that?

CLIENT: You know, sometimes I think I have a hard time comprehending. And I am so serious! Like because, I can read and read and read (chuckles)... I can have so many interpretations of one thing, you know? (therapist affirms) You know, and I'm trying to figure out, "Okay, which one was the right one?" (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Well, it sounds like there are two components. One is, you know, and we should sort of get to talking about the struggling to understand things, because I think that's a theme that's come up. But, you, I wonder if you also have a hard time taking a compliment.

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah. (therapist affirms) I've been told that. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: You know, so people see, you know, at each, you know, in the brief time we've been working together, at each kind of phase of your life, people see something special in you and you're always shocked and surprised by it.

CLIENT: Yeah. And you know, I keep asking myself, "Why don't I see what they see?"

THERAPIST: Why don't you see what they see? [00:12:31]

CLIENT: You know, and I don't know. Now, a guy that I met here (therapist affirms), he's a graduate student now. I bumped into him by accident, just coming into the building. We became good friends, you know, so far. He told me that he was a first assistant to a senator, you know and stuff and... You know then, I was telling him, I said, "Well you know, I was asked to participate in the conference in March." Then he was saying, "You'll be really good at it!" You know, he said, "I could see that!" And I'm like, "I just met him! How could he see that?" (chuckles) I mean...

THERAPIST: So tell me what you think, because you keep saying, I want to make sure I'm relevant, I'm not just kind of a person, a body (client confirms), you know. I would argue, of course, that you have significant relevance already, by nature of who you are, but I think this is something that you have to come to yourself. What is it that you think people are seeing? [00:13:37]

CLIENT: Well... I don't know. Okay, I think that maybe they see, okay, I'm a nice person. You know, I give myself that. I think that. I think that they may see... (pause) I don't know, maybe that I'm hard working, you know. I can see that, because I believe (chuckles) that I am. But when they say like, okay as far as, I would love to, okay, how do I want to say this? Because I'm like, going around in a circle here; I can feel that.

Um... I would love to see myself maybe as a person that people love to come to, which is, that's how I have it now, but I guess I would like to see it, in the sense that I know my stuff, to the point that if I'm giving advice to somebody, you know, I want to make sure it's the right thing to be saying to them, you know? Not just because this is how I feel. [00:14:45]

THERAPIST: So what do you think people see?

CLIENT: Oh, I didn't answer that, did I? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Well, I'm only making a point of that, because you know, it's almost like you're missing some things, because people already come to you. The sort of knowing what to do or how to intervene, let's say, if you're talking about counseling. Well, some of that you learn through school, but people already come to you. The question is, why do you think they come to you?

CLIENT: Because I try to make all the right decisions, at least I try to, you know? I know I'm far from perfect, you know, but I try to keep a level head, you know, no matter what. Whereas that, my sisters, oh, they get hostile like (snaps fingers) and they would be ready to... And then I would tell them, "No, that's not the way to do that."

THERAPIST: So, part of it is your attitude. [00:15:35]

CLIENT: I think so. (therapist affirms) You know, and then I think, I try to see things in more than one light, you know? I try to empathize, you know, I have empathy. If somebody comes to me and I understand the situation, then I'm always putting myself in their shoes before I open my mouth and say something, you know?

THERAPIST: So you're sort of relatable.

CLIENT: Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's a good word! (chuckles) And... (pause) I'm very patient. (therapist affirms) Oh, yeah, I'm very patient, you know. Whereas if I feel like I'm getting tired of something, somebody'd tell me, they'd say, "You're just now getting tired of that?" I'm thinking, "Oh!" You know, where I'm thinking I'm getting tired of that pretty fast like, "I'm fed up now," you know? They're like, "Oh, I would have been fed up with that!" You know, or whatever.

THERAPIST: So what do you think all these things say about who you are? [00:16:35]

CLIENT: I don't know! I mean... one word? (pause) Ohhh... (chuckles) I don't know! You know, it's like, um... (pause) Hmm!

THERAPIST: Yvette (sp), what if you're already who you want to be?

CLIENT: (pause) Oh, well, I...

THERAPIST: Now where you want to be, but who you want to be.

CLIENT: (pause) Um... Oh, man! I guess that would be good!

THERAPIST: Who do you want to be? [00:17:38]

CLIENT: (pause) I want to be somebody that makes a difference in something!

THERAPIST: Well, how have you not made a difference?

CLIENT: Uh... I don't know, I guess because of what I've, what I do is only with friends and family.

THERAPIST: You don't think you've made a difference in their lives?

CLIENT: (pause) Oh, well, yeah, maybe.

THERAPIST: Huge!

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: We talked last week about raising your sisters and your sons.

CLIENT: But you know, I felt like that was something that I had to do.

THERAPIST: No, it wasn't

CLIENT: You know? And then...

THERAPIST: No! No!

CLIENT: No? [00:18:22]

THERAPIST: No! No! You worked hard and you continue to work hard. (client affirms) Right? I mean, I'm sure you felt a sense of duty or obligation, but that's not, I mean, you didn't have to. So, what if you are who you want to be; you're just not where you want to be (in terms of education or whatever), but you are who you want to be. You want to make a difference, that matters to you. But you do! Even in the ice water man, right, who, the mountain man...

CLIENT: Yeah (hearty laughter), yeah!

THERAPIST: So, what do you think these interactions... tell me what the tears are about?

CLIENT: (pause) I don't know. I think, I just, I'm at a place where, I'm feeling pretty good.

THERAPIST: About?

CLIENT: Um... I think I'm making progress.

THERAPIST: You're feeling good about?

CLIENT: Myself.

THERAPIST: Yes!

CLIENT: Yes. And... Um... where, when I told you before, you asked me, you said, "Well, what are the tears for?" And I was like, "Why... I don't understand why... I had to come to pay you a visit. I should know," you know, but... [00:19:34]

THERAPIST: Why should you, why should you know?

CLIENT: I'm glad. I mean (sighs) I you asked me that before (client chuckles, therapist affirms), and I just, I don't know. I've always felt like once you become like a certain age, you know, we, the majority of us, well, all of us basically, should acquire wisdom, you know and everything. I think I do, or I have, but I still don't feel like I'm where I should be. I guess now that takes me back to where I, not who I want to be, but what I want to be.

THERAPIST: Okay. So you see the difference.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Right. But you, I hear you put all of this pressure on yourself, as well, about, "I'm supposed to know this and I'm supposed to know that and I'm supposed to be here and I'm supposed to be there," and I just wonder where that comes from for you.

CLIENT: I think it comes from like, um... If my sisters or somebody, you know, need to come to me for something, and if I really don't know, you know, I don't tell them that I don't know. I just tell them, "Well, you know, let me find out," you know? But some of the things, I'll be thinking, "I should have known that," you know? Or, you know, like... [00:20:42]

THERAPIST: Why should you have known?

CLIENT: I don't know!

THERAPIST: That's like last week, where you were talking about you should have your poems memorized.

CLIENT: Yeah! I don't know why I feel like that, like, if... it's almost like if you invented something. Somebody asks you, "Okay explain it to me." You know, it's your invention; you should be able to explain it, right? I can come up with (chuckles) all these ideas, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I know how to explain it.

THERAPIST: And that's important, because...?

CLIENT: Well, because I feel like now, okay, you've invented this idea or whatever, and you're not going to be able to sell it, because you have to get out there and you have to explain, and you don't know... I mean like, I was asking my son yesterday. I said, "What do you think of a person who has all these ideas at the same time?" I mean, like my brain, out of nowhere, it will just start racing. (snaps fingers) And I could see everything I'm thinking of, but before I can get a pen and write it down, it's gone already. (therapist responds) [00:21:45]

You know, and he said, "Ma, I think that's a person who needs a better memory!" (chuckles) You know? That's when I was thinking, I said, now that took me back to when I kept saying, "Okay, my memory is not the best." (therapist affirms) I'd never told him that that was me, you know. I just wanted to see what he thought about it, because yesterday it just hit me out of nowhere. Like, I could just see everything, like my brain was just, it was just going so fast like, and I could see everything that I was thinking, but before I could write it down, because I know that I'm going to forget it, I couldn't remember it.

THERAPIST: Let me... hold on, let me see if I can... I'm going to ask you a couple of questions. (client affirms) You tell me... You tell me what fits for you, okay? (client affirms) [00:22:35]

(pause) (sound of flipping pages) Okay. Tell me what fits, all right? I'm going to read you a couple of things, all right? Do you sometimes fail or often fail to give close attention to details or make careless mistakes in schoolwork, work, or other activities?

CLIENT: (pause) Okay, could you read that one more time?

THERAPIST: Absolutely. Often fails to give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes in schoolwork, work, or other activities.

CLIENT: Sometimes.

THERAPIST: Okay. So, would you say that's a "yes" or a "no"?

CLIENT: Hmm... yes.

THERAPIST: All right. Often has difficulty sustaining attention in tasks? [00:23:38]

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly?

CLIENT: (pause) Umm... No...

THERAPIST: All right. Often does not follow through on instructions and/or fails to finish schoolwork or other duties in the work place?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: All right. Often has difficulty organizing tasks and activities?

CLIENT: Okay, so organizing... Um... Okay, wait a minute. Read that one again.

THERAPIST: Often has difficulty organizing tasks and activities?

CLIENT: No...

THERAPIST: Often avoids, dislikes, or is reluctant to engage in tasks that require sustained mental effort, like schoolwork or homework?

CLIENT: In the physical sense, yes. Like, if there was competition, say like somebody would say there was a math competition or something, yeah, I would, you know... [00:24:47]

THERAPIST: But on a day-to-day basis, doing homework, you can concentrate?

CLIENT: Sometimes. You know, I could be at home and I would feel like I have to go to the library. (therapist affirms) You know, because I don't feel that I'm disciplined enough to work at home, even if it's quiet. You know, because, I have all these things that I can do. I can put the TV on, I can, you know, get up and start making dinner. It's like my mind would like, veer off from what I'm doing, and want to go and do this. Then I would try to do everything at the same time, you know what I mean?

Like, I would get my dinner on, because I feel like my time is everything and I hate to waste a second, if there are so many different things I could be doing. You know, like I say, well okay, like you said organizing? Okay, I would say, well I have to get dinner on, and then it has to simmer for a while, so while that's doing that, then I could be sweeping and mopping and, you know and then I'll have that done. Then by the time I'm done with that, I wash my hands and I go back to check my dinner. It would probably be done, now I can start doing this, you know and... yeah. [00:25:47]

THERAPIST: But you're managing all of those?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Okay. Do you... Often loses things necessary for tasks or activities?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: All right. Is often distracted by sort of outside stimuli or things in the environment?

CLIENT: (pause) I guess it would all depend on what I'm doing.

THERAPIST: And are you often forgetful in daily activities?

CLIENT: Yes!

THERAPIST: Okay. Do you ever sort of, or... Often fidgets with hands or squirms in your seat?

CLIENT: No, I only fidget with my hands when I'm hungry! (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Okay. Yeah, you know... This is... So, do you know what I'm reading? (client denies) I'm reading that... You've heard of Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder? (client affirms) Okay, there are two types. One is inattentive, you have problems paying attention. The other is hyperactivity, okay? You don't seem to really have that. But there might be something there. [00:26:46]

I know before, we talked about the idea of a learning disability (client affirms) and to be fully evaluated for that, you'd have to be tested. So let's talk about some ways, before you go to today, that we can see about getting you some testing. You know, I mean, but I think a couple of things we should think about.

You are a person who has a lot to do, right? A lot to manage. You have a lot to do and a lot to manage. There are so many balls up in the air, you forget things (client affirms), right? And your mind is always going. (client emphatically affirms) And so, you know, I guess what I am struggling with is sort of seeing if that's a real problem, or you're just being excessively hard on yourself, because you know, you think you should remember all of these things that no one person could really remember. [00:27:40]

You know, because there is a pattern, Yvette, where you feel like, "I should know this and I should know that and I'm supposed to...," you know. I mean, if I'm making a comparison to myself, I don't feel like I should know most of the things you think you should know! (client affirms) Right? So, I think I used the example last week of a student saying, "Could you repeat what you said?" "No! I can't repeat what I just said!" At least in the same way that I said it! Now somebody else who wrote it down in class can repeat it for me, but I never have the expectation that I'm supposed to do that.

So if I said, "Let me give you some homework," right? You come back the next week; I might forget to say, "Well, did you do the homework?" Because I won't remember! But I don't, in some ways, I don't expect myself to (client affirms) and you're very hard on yourself when you don't remember those things. So, (client affirms) does that make sense? (client affirms) My struggle is, is this a pattern where you are just so hard on yourself, you feel like, "I should know that, I should know this," and that's one issue. Or are there some real cognitive issues, where you're having concentration problems or you're having memory problems, where you can't remember. That's what we have to sort out. [00:28:53]

CLIENT: And yeah, because I really want to know that, because...

THERAPIST: Me, too! (both laugh)

CLIENT: Because, I mean... Whatever it is that I know I have to do (therapist affirms), I try to be the best at, I don't care what it is I'm doing, you know. I have to be the best at it, you know?

THERAPIST: Because you... why do you have to be the best?

CLIENT: Well... okay. Back when I was in high school (therapist responds), if it wasn't for (like I told you, the teacher that gave me the job tutoring algebra), if it wasn't for her and the love of JROTC, you know, and the competition, it was so competitive! I never knew that I was a competitive person until then, that I enjoyed it. What it was (chuckles), was I was the strongest. I was in ROTC for four years; I was the strongest female for the whole four years! [00:29:50]

THERAPIST: Okay! Impressive!

CLIENT: And they couldn't believe it, that they had me (chuckles) compete against the strongest guy! This guy wanted to take me down so bad! But he couldn't do it! (therapist laughs) You know, it was like, I always, like you say, and I see it now.

THERAPIST: Good for you!

CLIENT: You know, I always pushed myself because, if you're late to class, women had to do leap-ins (ph), the guys had to do push-ups. Well, I would do push-ups! I wouldn't do leap-ins.

THERAPIST: Because why?

CLIENT: Because I knew I was going to have to compete against him! I said, "If I'm going have to compete against him, I have to think like a boy! I have to do it like a boy does, because if I'm too girly, you know, he's going to eat me alive!"

THERAPIST: And what happened?

CLIENT: And I told him, (therapist laughs heartily) yes I did! And I loved it!

THERAPIST: I'd be hating it!

CLIENT: Loved it! He hated it, you know?

THERAPIST: And what does that say about you? [00:30:44]

CLIENT: (laughs) I don't know. (laughs) Golly!

THERAPIST: You're laughing!

CLIENT: You know, yeah, because um... Okay, I want to take you back to the mountain thing, when I was going to go to work for that. You know, people were telling me, and my grandmother said, "That's a man's job"! I don't believe nothing is just a man's job! I think, if it's something that you really want to do, you know, then do it! You know? If you condition your mind right...

THERAPIST: But what does that say about who you are?

CLIENT: Um... (laughs) Um... About who I am... I would have to say that... (pause) Well, I really don't want to use the word "competitive," only because I think a competitive person, they compete, no matter what! (therapist makes high-pitched sound) You know? No?

THERAPIST: (high-pitched sound of uncertainty) I don't, you know, I think you can compete in areas; it doesn't make you into a bad person! I mean, I think you can be competitive in one area and not in another. [00:31:50]

CLIENT: Okay. Because like back to the ROTC thing? I actually became battalion commander.

THERAPIST: Hey! (sound of slapping, possible "high five")

CLIENT: I was over everybody.

THERAPIST: That is wonderful, especially given it's back in the day!

CLIENT: Yeah! You know? And I mean, I tell you, I was 17.

THERAPIST: And you feel what about that accomplishment?

CLIENT: Oh, I feel good!

THERAPIST: Right. But what is all of it say about you, Yvette?

CLIENT: Every time we get to that, I don't know! (laughs)

THERAPIST: Yeah, and I wonder, you know... pulling together the pieces. So you say, I don't know who I am, but you don't make decisions like somebody who doesn't know who she is, you don't talk about yourself like you don't know who you are. You make decisions and you talk about yourself like somebody who knows exactly who she is, you just haven't claimed it yet.

CLIENT: I haven't claimed it.

THERAPIST: You say, I'm competitive, and I have all of these ideas and I want to make sure I go back to school and I... Does that sound like indecisiveness to you? [00:32:51]

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: And so, other people... You have a light in you and other people see it. You're accessible, right? Which means, people... You are knowable, genuine and knowable, people want to know you, and you are easily knowable, right? Not in an inappropriate way or not in a, you know, you're not, you're not guarded, right? But you're not sort of inappropriately telling people things about yourself. But people want to know you, they interact with you. You know, even in here, you sat down and I was like, "Oh, I like Yvette!"

CLIENT: Yeah! (laughs)

THERAPIST: So you're easy to know! (client affirms) So then, well, what does that say about you? It says, you're easy to know and you're genuine and you're warm and you love to compete, right? And to see if you, the challenge, you're up for the challenge, right? You try to maintain a positive life attitude, where other people don't, despite all of the traumatic things you've been through, right? I think that the struggle is worthy of us acknowledging and looking at (so we don't gloss over it), but you know, you sort of, "These things made me who I am," and "Let's keep going and...," you know. I think those are some, that's part of, a huge part of who you are. [00:34:08]

You're also unreasonably hard on yourself, you know. Being a perfectionistic person can be damaging in some ways. So there are some very excellent aspects about who you are that you haven't acknowledged and embraced. You keep saying, "Well, why do people look at me and say these things? Why do those teachers say, you know, that you come to school and this teacher says, you know, I'm going to, I want you! I'm going to watch you, I'm going to lay hands on you," and you're like, surprised! But that has happened, that's a theme in your life!

CLIENT: You know, it's... Okay, I (chuckles) had a teacher crack a joke, right? In a conversation, uh-huh. We were in a conversation and she cracked a joke about what we were talking about, and then she said, "You didn't even get it!" (laughs) She said, "You... did you come here on the short bus?" And I fell down laughing! You know? Because I said, "Oh." I said, "Would you say it again?" (both laugh) She was like, "No! It's over with! No! You didn't get it!" I was like, "Oh..." (laughs) [00:35:09]

THERAPIST: How did you feel about that?

CLIENT: Um... oh, like I should have gotten it, you know? Because everybody else was laughing and I'm like, "Oh, God; here I go! Why didn't I get it?"

THERAPIST: Well, so again, and you know, I mean, in some ways, it's inappropriate for her to say, "Did you come here on the short bus," right?

CLIENT: Oh, but we joked around a lot, you know? So...

THERAPIST: But it hurt you!

CLIENT: Well, no.

THERAPIST: No, it hurt you, that you didn't get it. (client affirms) That something's wrong with you.

CLIENT: You know, it's like... (sighs)

THERAPIST: But why do you feel like you should get everything?

CLIENT: I don't know!

THERAPIST: Yes, we have to look at that. I mean, and again, we're back to our dilemma. Is this a real cognitive deficit, or is it just like... You know, I just had a meeting with my boss. He's using all kinds acronyms: ETC and GRE or whatever. "What is that?" I said, "What is that?" (client laughs) You know. Because, you know, for me, a conversation can't proceed unless I, I don't understand what you're talking about.

CLIENT: See, that's how I am, yes. [00:36:07]

THERAPIST: Right. But I, I sort of look at that and I go, "Okay, what are you talking about? I don't understand. Explain it to me." I don't take it to mean, "I'm not smart or something is wrong with me." I take it to mean, "I don't know what you're talking about, so just tell me what you're talking about." When you don't understand something, you always take it to mean something is wrong with you. You're not quick enough, you didn't catch it, you're not smart enough. Right. I guess, for me, part of me wants to tell you, "Yvette, there are nothing wrong with you. You're just being really hard on yourself," right? I'm sensing that there might be some internalized critical voice, some voice within you of somebody or something or maybe yourself telling you, "What's wrong with you? You're supposed to understand it. Why don't you understand it," you know.

That comes from a place; sometimes childhood; we'll look at that. Or if there is actually a real cognitive problem. You're extremely bright! Like, off-the-charts smart! You know, you're coming up with business plans and detailed business plans. You write really well! You wrote that plan last week, you showed me. You write really well! You're very smart, right? So you are retaining information, right? You're hard on yourself, because you're, you know, to articulate is to be able to explain yourself. You feel like you're not able to explain yourself well. [00:37:29]

CLIENT: Right. You know like, okay. You're a doctor now. You went to school, you studied all your stuff, and you graduated, and now you are counseling, right? (therapist affirms) Okay, and when I come in here and I talk to you, you know, you know your stuff. I can tell you know your stuff, because you make me feel wonderful when I leave here, you know. I'm thinking... Okay, I guess that takes me back to the nursing thing.

THERAPIST: Okay, what about it? But wait! Ooo! Okay, but you saved your grandmother's life by doing CPR! You manage your grandfather's medications. When you were very young, you knew you had to go to the doctor. How is that not applying what you know?

CLIENT: Oh, yeah!

THERAPIST: Right! (client chuckles) Right. And you do that all the time, right? So, you know, I'm 40, right? You're 44? (client affirms) Okay. So, I've been doing this for a while, a long time, right? You've been doing, you can apply nursing, every day you apply it, to what, you apply what you know constantly! You just, it was just the test! So somehow that test, in you, you know, the fact that you didn't do well on the test and you know, we all know that it was apparently a huge part was not your fault after your mind got poisoned by a dude (ph) (client affirms) . [00:38:55]

Okay, but you apply it all the time! Right? I teach. That's what I do. So, people are always asking me to explain what I'm talking about. So I just have practiced a set of skills, I have to constantly explain what I'm talking about, because that's part of my profession, it's what I do, right? You just, you know it and you do it (client affirms), right?

So you saved your grandmother's life through CPR. I've been CPR-trained so many times! Honestly, if... I hope nobody ever has a heart attack on me! (client chuckles) Because I don't know if I would be... I'd do some breathing and I don't know what, how many chest compressions. I can never keep that straight in my mind! You just did it!

CLIENT: Yeah. Oh, and I sure did! God, I acted so fast! I didn't even have time to think!

THERAPIST: Okay, but how is that not, that's a physical articulation. That's physically being able to do it. Nobody, no one said, "Can you explain it?" You just did it! (client affirms) Why is that different than what I'm doing here? I'm just using words. [00:40:03]

CLIENT: (pause) Hmm... (pause) I guess... it's not. I mean, because...

THERAPIST: Oh, wait, you know, what, why are you saying, what?

CLIENT: Wait a minute.

THERAPIST: What did you say? You said it's not!

CLIENT: Right. (therapist affirms) Because using, if you're explaining, that's the same thing as doing. (therapist affirms) Just like with me. I was doing in here...

THERAPIST: Yeah, what?

CLIENT: Because I was doing it, even though it's like talking without opening your mouth, basically.

THERAPIST: Yes! My guess is, you would have made an excellent nurse, because that's what nurses are supposed to do. If you're wasting words, when you could be saving someone's life, what are you doing? (client affirms) But you give yourself very little credit, right? You don't sort of, so what am I trying to get you to do? The theme of the day, right?

All these people see these things in you, you have a sense of the things that you're good at, because you keep choosing fields (client responds) that maximize or they're right in your skill set. You keep choosing the right fields. You said, "I'm a good decision maker," and yes, you are. You keep doing that. But you're not really putting it inside yourself or internalizing it, to know... [00:41:21]

CLIENT: Like owning it.

THERAPIST: ...that it's your... Exactly! You're not owning it!

CLIENT: I have to own it.

THERAPIST: But you sense it, because you act on it and you use it all the time, right? But if you owned it, you could do it with confidence.

CLIENT: That's, I think that's what I'm trying to, that's the point where I'm trying to get to (therapist affirms), where I can do it with confidence.

THERAPIST: Right. So my, back to my point about what if you already are the person who you want to be?

CLIENT: (pause) Well...

THERAPIST: You're just not where you want to be or what you want to be doing, but who you are is golden! What if that's true?

CLIENT: And I think I can see that.

THERAPIST: Oh, wait, really? Wait, say that again.

CLIENT: Yeah, (both laugh) I think I can! I think I can see that, because you're making me see it, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yes, but other people have made you see it, too! [00:42:20]

CLIENT: I mean, but, you know, it's like, it's like coming from them, you feel like, "You know, hey, that's my family, you know. They're going to say that."

THERAPIST: No, they're not!

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: But it's not just your family. It's your teachers (client affirms), your professors (client affirms), it's you in ROTC. That competitive edge has in some ways, helped get you through. (client affirms) So it's to be respected. There is nothing wrong with competing and then you're now competing with yourself. I just, I would like to sort of take away the part of you... not the part of you, but the part of the competition piece that is self-blaming or self-damning.

CLIENT: Me, too.

THERAPIST: Yes. But the competitive edge, we want to leave that alone, that's great! Because that's what, you keep coming back to school and you keep doing this (client emphatically agrees), yeah! And writing business plans and stuff! Okay, you wrote that business plan, that you showed me this week? How is that not articulate to you? [00:43:22]

CLIENT: Well... I wrote it and the idea, the possession of the idea, you know, "Who's going to like that?" (laughs) And I'm thinking, was it...

THERAPIST: How's that not articulate?

CLIENT: ...all for nothing?

THERAPIST: Wait. How is that... but you wrote it on the, I've read it! It's grammatically perfect. I didn't see grammar errors in there, right? (client affirms) Well, there weren't. Okay. It was a well-thought-out plan, someone who can think critically, step by step by step, and you wrote it out.

CLIENT: I like critical thinking.

THERAPIST: Well, you're good at it, but you just don't recognize you are. You write out this plan, okay? That's articulate! That's sort of a written communication. So you say you're not articulate; you only mean verbally, right?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, I guess.

THERAPIST: We have to look at that, because you can write well, right? Do you have problems with your papers in school? When you turn them in? [00:44:31]

CLIENT: Um... no.

THERAPIST: Okay. So, you write well. You think well. You are great with hands-on. The only thing that you are really, it sounds like, that you feel you struggle with is verbal articulation. You can't explain yourself. (client affirms) Okay?

CLIENT: You know, and then... it's like when I (chuckles), we were here and I did the (snaps finger) interpretation of Forgiveness for Helen Whitney? When I got there, I mean and I know that's like common, you know, that happens, you know. I got up there, I forgot my name (chuckles). But, I carried it, you know. It's like I made the people laugh and I said, "Well, wait a minute." Instantly, I had to think of something; how am I going to recover from this, you know, because the Professor was looking at me like...

THERAPIST: Wait. You forgot to say your name? Or you forgot who you were? [00:45:26]

CLIENT: Yeah. I said, "Hello, everyone. My name is Yvette..." (laughs) Then, I said, "Oh, wait." I said, "Please forgive me," you know, I said, "because my mind isn't what it used to be," you know? They started laughing and I said, "Okay. They're rolling with you! Recover! What are you going to do?" You know? Because, like I say, I was anticipating on what I was going to say.

THERAPIST: So wait. You got up to speak in front of a group of people. (client affirms) And, did you like doing that?

CLIENT: Oh, yeah. It doesn't bother me, you know. It's just...

THERAPIST: So you do that without nerves, even though, for most people, they struggle with that.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, I was nervous, because I didn't prepare anything. Where everyone else that got up there, they had, I mean, papers that they typed out, they were reading from and...

THERAPIST: So somehow, you had the confidence to get up and speak in front of a group of people...

CLIENT: Just from my heart, that's what I did. I just... [00:46:18]

THERAPIST: And you did a good job. (client affirms) Okay. So, um, right. That's a lot, Yvette. I don't know where this is coming from, that you're not articulate. I think it's because you think you're supposed to be perfect. So you're not enjoying all the things you are. Not everyone can just get up and speak free flowing in front of a group of people, and make a group of people laugh, right? Not everyone can just write a business plan. Not everyone can, you know, be in charge of the Junior ROTC. I mean, these are pretty amazing things, and you're still surprised by them.

CLIENT: I mean, yeah. I guess because... what was it I wanted to say? Um, okay. This past, this summer, I had a course and the girl that (in fact, I think I told you this, maybe in the first meeting?), the girl that, we were friends back in grammar school? (therapist affirms) Okay. And for her to... I don't know, it's almost like she... I don't know if she wanted to embarrass me or what the case may have been, but to do it front of the whole entire class like that, you know, and telling the professor that, "Well, you know we got our thing together and everything, but the one person in our group, I'm not going to say her name..." You know, everybody knows who's in whose group; there are only three of us, two girls, one guy. You know, and she said, "Well, she just couldn't get it together. You know, but Drew (sp?) and pulled her together, you know, so she finally got it."

I was thinking to myself, now I did have a hard time understanding what my piece of the project was, so I kept asking them. You know, I said, "Okay, can you explain to me again what is it that you're expecting from me, so I can give you exactly what it is that you want. (therapist responds) You know, so we can get an "A" on this project." And, from the way she... because, it's like she like took over, basically. So that's why I went to her and asked her, you know.

The guy, he was really quiet the whole time. So she was saying, "Well, okay, you know, you look up this part, this part." I said, "Okay." Now, she's telling me this, now I'm writing it down. I told her, I showed it to her, "Is this what you want me to do?" She'd say, "Yeah." I said, "Okay." But then, when I get home, and I'm really looking at it, everything was pretty much laid out for us, you know, on a rubric. (therapist responds)

I said, "This doesn't make sense, what she asking me to do." So then I call her on the phone and then she said, "Well, Yvette!" You know, why does she have to keep telling me. And I said, "Well, okay. Maybe I'm just not comprehending, you know, what she's saying." I didn't want to like, bother the professor, because, you know, I just figured, you know, we're adults. We can work this out, you know.

I called her again and I think she was getting frustrated, you know, or what have you. But, then when I gave her my idea for the paper, she was saying, "No, no, no!" She said, "This is my major! And I," you know, she said, "trust me. No, she doesn't want that. She wants this!" You know, and this is my first time ever doing something like this, so I said, "Okay." I said, "Okay, fine." But then, I just said, "Forget it. I'm going to go ahead and do it that way."

I did it, but when the teacher, in the end, said what she was expecting from everyone, and I looked at the girl, and she looked at me and pointed at me and she said, "You said that!" You know? I didn't say anything. You know, I know I said it; she knew I said it; the guy knew I said it. I said, "Why would we give her back the same thing she gave us? You know, that's just an example to follow."

THERAPIST: So let's...

CLIENT: I don't... I'm sorry.

THERAPIST: No that's okay. So you know, and as we end today, because unfortunately I have a 12:00.

CLIENT: I know; I'm sorry.

THERAPIST: You know, I think there are a couple of interesting things here. You know, one, you ceded to her, right? Because she kept saying, "I know, I know, I know more!" And she didn't! Right? And because you felt like, you know, what she was saying to you was confusing, once again, you said, "Well, it must be me." (client affirms) I think that's what we have to take a look at, because I don't always think it is you. (client affirms) All right. Let me stop this thing, and then...

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