TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: …my germs. Getting my germs [all the time] (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah, that's awful. That was such a long stretch.

THERAPIST: It has been. (sighs) Spring is coming, right?

CLIENT: Right, yeah. You're due for some good healthy days in the spring and summer, that's for sure. (laughter)

THERAPIST: So how are you?

CLIENT: I'm feeling much better than the last time I was here, just last week. But I hadn't talked to Ryan yet about his feedback and I had only just received that e-mail.

THERAPIST: It was really fresh.

CLIENT: Yeah, and it was just, like, the waiting. Like, that whole week I just felt like I was anticipating…

THERAPIST: So you didn't get to talk to him until that Friday?

CLIENT: We (met) that Friday but it actually ended up really funny that I was in we have, like, the botJeff of our library, there's, like, a café area and everything and I was meeting with a student there on Thursday afternoon and he happened to walk in. And he never is usually even on campus. He's usually always at the office. But it's, like, it was just redone last year and it's really nice space to just go and get work done whatever. And he was like, "I thought I would try it out." [00:01:00]

So we just bumped into each other and I was meeting with that student but he was like, "Oh, I'll stay around here and just come find me when you're done." And I knew we have lots of stuff for the class that meets on Friday to catch up on, but I kind of knew we would talk about it. So in a way it was kind of nice because I had already started, like, just writing down ideas and I wanted to bring up at our meeting and I feel like I was, like, really trying to prepare for it by getting nervous about it. So it was kind of nice that…

THERAPIST: To have that process sort of preempted.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like, it happened more spontaneously kind of. But there was no resolution that we kind of came to on Thursday so in a way it was what made things worse too. (laughter) Like, he was really pushing back on it and all in a really nice kind of, like, good mentor kind of way, you know. It wasn't like he was trying to be overly, like, critical about things. I could tell, like, it's all out of goodness that he cares about really supporting me. So it was all, like, coming from a good place but I just felt like we were not on the same page at all. And I wasn't really getting some of his feedback and I feel like he was kind of confused with my intentions and it just, like, didn't feel like we had come to anything and so we knew we still had our meeting on Friday. And when we were kind of finishing our talk on Thursday he's like, "Let's just start fresh on Friday and tell me, like, what your goal for your dissertation would be. Like, this should be leading up to your dissertation." He's like, "So let's start there on Friday." [00:02:26]

And then finally so then Thursday night I just, like, felt all upset about it all and then of course was, like, projecting into the future and thinking like, "If he doesn't approve this and I need to redo it I'd have to redo my whole IRB." You know, just, like, thinking way too big.

THERAPIST: Worse case scenarios.

CLIENT: Yeah. And so Todd was good about, you know, trying to not let me do that but I felt like Thursday was just a hard night because we came to no resolution. And at least I was able to talk it over with Todd but I just felt then, like, all worried about Friday.

THERAPIST: Yeah, understandably so.

CLIENT: Yeah, and then Friday is always just a long day for us anyway. Like, we have our teaching team meeting and then we teach from 1:00 to 4:00 and then I had a student meeting and then I was going to meet with him. So it was just all this anticipation. But then meeting on Friday went really, really well and I think just starting from what my final goal was really (ph) helped us.

THERAPIST: Kind of outlining where you were going.

CLIENT: Yeah. Because then he was like, "Oh, now this makes sense to me. I understand why you would want to approach it from this way." Then finally -

THERAPIST: So he never really got to see it as a piece of the process in one part of this kind of for one part of a bigger plan (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah. Which, I mean, I should have been better about that from the beginning too and he probably should have too, as being on my committee. So I think both of us. That's, like, good to know for the future, to kind of keep that end goal in sight.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 03:53) the overall story and then move to the narrower focus.

CLIENT: Yeah. So that just made me feel, like, this huge sense of relief too. And then it wasn't so much this feeling of, like, having disappointed him either but it was just, like, we weren't quite on the same page. So that felt a lot better. (laughter)

THERAPIST: I'm glad that problem is solved.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, I think otherwise -

THERAPIST: Have you heard back from other people?

CLIENT: Now I have approval from everyone, yeah.

THERAPIST: Awesome. Congratulations.

CLIENT: Thank you. So that feels good but I'm still but I have approval from the IRB. I'm just waiting now for Public Schools. The school I'm doing it in that is, like, also notorious for taking a long time to pass. But once that's approved then hopefully I can get in there. But it is still this, like, really weird feeling of just, like, waiting. And it's also I'm trying to enjoy it because I feel like right now my workload, I don't think I've ever been able to say it's, like, totally manageable. Because all I'm really doing now is, you know, little stuff to prepare for the study (ph) that's coming up and then Ryan's class. So it's kind of weird. But I also feel like I can just imagine what it's going to be like once I do start collecting data. [00:05:11]

THERAPIST: It's going to be a lot busier.

CLIENT: So it's kind of nice, yeah. Because in some senses I'm like, oh this is weird, like, that I don't really have that much work to do and we're still sending Trae to daycare and my mom's still coming. But it's nice to be staying on top of things and not really have stuff to go home and do and be able to spend more time with Trae. Like, my mom hasn't really been rushing to get down here in the mornings.

THERAPIST: You've been having those more relaxed mornings.

CLIENT: Yeah, so that's been nice because I have a feeling it will be a whirlwind once it starts up (ph).

THERAPIST: Allowing yourself to take advantage of that now while it's here in the present for you.

CLIENT: Yeah. So it feels nice to kind of just have things feel a little in order for once, where usually it's that's feeling of running.

THERAPIST: Or like you're scrambling. You've been feeling like you're scrambling to get everything accomplished.

CLIENT: Definitely, yeah. So that was definitely nice to get that resolved. I do feel like he was funny saying so he did his doctorate here as well. Or no, I guess he did his undergrad degree he went to a different for his doctorate, for his master's, I guess. But when he was saying he was here, he won this award when he came back for his doctorate, for his PhD and saying, "I want you to win the award." And I was kind of joking with him. I was like, "You cannot put that pressure on me." (laughter) And he was saying it in, like, kind of a joking way but knowing that once (ph) -

THERAPIST: But now there's this idea.

CLIENT: Yeah. And as soon as I told my mom that, when I was telling her the story, she's like, "Get that out of your mind, like, right now." And I do feel like we're kind of coming at it from different places. I don't even think he was married when he did his dissertation. So I feel like we're in very different places. So in one sense it's really nice to know that -

THERAPIST: He thinks you have this ability.

CLIENT: Yeah, and that he wants it to be really good and -

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 07:02) dissertation.

CLIENT: Yeah. So that feels really good that I have someone on my committee who's so dedicated to it but I also feel like that's a good sign to me, like, for even right now, just to be aware that I don't let that put too much on me.

THERAPIST: And that's not necessarily your goal.

CLIENT: No, not at all.

THERAPIST: You want to get your PhD but you don't have to win an award to do that.

CLIENT: No, I know. And I also feel like the kind of research I want to do I think school kind of has, like, certain ways that they value certain kinds of research. And with mine, where I want to be so involved with the teachers and if there's it's not exactly action research, what I did last time, but some people don't view that as, like, this very prestigious kind of research. So it's almost kind of nice that, like it kind of takes mine off the table (laughter), which I feel really good about. Like, I don't identify myself as that, like, hardcore, like, quantitative kind of researcher. Like, I'm looking more to be working with the teachers. And there are some people in my program who are more of that and we all just kind of identify in different ways. So in a way it's [kind of nice] (ph). [00:08:05]

THERAPIST: Knowing what you do brings a value, even if it's not necessarily valued by that kind of committee that's going to do, you know, decide -

CLIENT: Awards or whatever, yeah. So I feel like that's kind of almost a relief too, to know that I don't really need to have that.

THERAPIST: Yeah, and you don't have to be in that arena competing for that kind of recognition.

CLIENT: Yeah. So I think that will be kind of important to keep in mind and kind of balance.

THERAPIST: And finding a way to let him know that and kind of what your goal is, what feels really important to you right now, so that you don't have to constantly be battling an expectation that doesn't fit for yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah, and he was even saying that too. But I think it will be different just because I think I'm at a different point in my life than he was. But he, I mean, he married me and Todd. He knows all about Trae, you know, so I think he realizes that too. (laughter)

THERAPIST: He knows that you're not single.

CLIENT: Yeah, just going to dedicate everything to this dissertation. But it does feel really good because on the other hand I felt like my primary advisor hardly even read it, you know. So it's kind of nice to have -

THERAPIST: Kind of nice to have someone that is really invested [in you] (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah, it feels like it kind of balances it out a little bit.

THERAPIST: So find a way to keep him really invested in the work but not so invested in the outcome.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's true. I'm just really starting this whole process of this piece. It'll be years. I think (laughter) I'll have a chance to figure out the -

THERAPIST: Plenty of time to fine tune. Unfortunately, a big piece of doing your research and dissertation is managing your committee and, you know, kind of playing the politics and dynamics and getting what you need out of each person and finding a way to keep the work valuable and meaningful to yourself and letting some of that other stuff play out and…

CLIENT: Yeah, it's interesting, like, that I think you develop a whole other set of skills to just, like, the interpersonal and stuff like that. (laughter)

THERAPIST: Yep, and they'll come in handy in your work, I'm sure.

CLIENT: I know, yeah. So that will be good. So that just feels nice to [00:10:14]

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's a big difference from sitting where you were kind of getting that e-mail in your lap last week.

CLIENT: Yeah, and now I'm just kind of back to waiting, which feels much better than back to waiting and, like, dreading and not knowing what was happening with that. So that's good and hopefully I'll hear back soon. But I did feel like, other than that, I think that was just, like, kind of consuming me. But it was funny that as soon as I heard back from Ryan and had that good meeting with him on Friday, it was almost like I let these other little things pop into my head to get worried about. And I was trying to think of, like, why I was doing that to myself. You know, then I was like, I finally could breathe a sigh of relief after from, like, Sunday night to Friday, wondering about this.

THERAPIST: Right, why not let yourself sit with relief rather than fill it with the next worry.

CLIENT: Yeah, and it was back to the worries that I don't think I really needed to be too worried about. Like, I don't think that they were totally, like, the crazy ones that I make up but they were, like, little things that I wanted to check on. Like, we have we record all of our classes and post them on our website in case students can't make it and at the end of the class the teaching team and I, like, we were saying when we're meeting with students or whatever. I was like, "Oh yeah, I have a meeting coming up with a group of students that I'm kind of worried about." And I said it in that way and then after I was like, imagine if the video is still I knew it was still going. I don't think it would ever have picked up my voice. I didn't say anything that bad but that, like, instantly popped into my head, thinking, like, I need to check the video to make sure that that comment isn't still on there because if a student ever heard, like, that just wouldn't be a very nice thing to hear. [00:11:57]

So it was kind of, like, those little things I didn't need to let escalate but, like, those little things from class were kind of popping into my head. It was almost like it just, like, replaced it auJeffatically.

THERAPIST: How long would those worries stick with you (inaudible at 12:12) like that?

CLIENT: That all happened on Friday night and I had a little bit of trouble falling asleep on Friday night, but I knew exactly what I was doing. It was almost like that week was so hard and then to have the relief after such a stress, I couldn't like, I just needed something.

THERAPIST: You (ph) didn't let go.

CLIENT: Yeah, and I (inaudible at 12:34) myself to sleep but it just took me a little while.

THERAPIST: I wonder if it would help to have something to sort of express what's going on. So, like, all this stuff is going on in your head. I wonder if it would help you to kind of mentally let go of it if we had a concrete way for you to sort of enact it. So I'm envisioning, like, when you have these worries that come into your head, you know that they're not totally it's not productive worry. It's not sparking you to do anything. It's not motivating you to want to do research or do whatever. So I wonder if we created like a worry jar, where you wrote down these things that pop into your head, assess whether or not it was something that you actually needed or could do something about. And if not, it goes in the jar and you put the lid on it and you let it go. And if it's something that, like, you could check on or you could do something about then you could do it and move on.

THERAPIST: But I wonder if that would if, like, having a way to, like, play it out would allow you to let go of it more easily and then either, you know, let yourself move on and have fun, if you were doing something fun, or let yourself fall asleep and relax.

CLIENT: Yeah, I think it would be worth trying. Because I've read just stuff about, like, even just, like, making a list or something. I've never done that before but just as a way to kind of get rid of the worry too.

THERAPIST: Yeah. For whatever reason, sometimes it just can be really helpful to, you know, write. I think writing something out allows us to process it in a way of (ph) having something concrete. I feel like I've done something now. I've put it away. It symbolizes something. I don't know really why it works but I think it can be helpful to have this it feels like a parallel way to process it so it's not stuck in your head.

CLIENT: Yeah, I definitely would feel up to trying that, for sure.

THERAPIST: I'd be interested to hear how it works.

CLIENT: And I think it will be good for me because, like you said, I would be the one deciding, "Do I put it in the jar?"

THERAPIST: Right, rather than asking Todd.

CLIENT: Right, because I was going to say I really want to say to Todd, "Should I go on that online to the web site right now and look to see if that video is posted?" And I don't think I did. There was one other e-mail I had written to Ryan about a student. I think they all come down to, like, worrying that I'm, like, hurting someone else's feelings or something because that was definitely what it was with the website. And then Ryan had there was a, I don't know, like, what you call them. Like, a columnist or something from our at-school magazine who wanted to interview Ryan about a student we had last year who he was this great student but had some commitments to other, like, resources and education, like, other programs and stuff that I wasn't totally in agreement with. And so I said something like that. Like, "He's really into this resource and I don't know how I feel about this, which makes me just wonder about his, you know, values and beliefs about teaching and learning." [00:15:33]

So I didn't say anything negative about the student but I just, like, it makes me wonder. And that popped into my head when I was having trouble falling asleep too, thinking, like, would Ryan interpret that as me saying something negative about the student. So they were both kind of similar things, like, just worrying that am I hurting someone's feelings by saying this? And even talking that over with Todd, because it was a resource that he doesn't really agree with either, this, like, supports for teachers that's more just, like, presenting information to kids instead of letting them come up with their own meanings and understandings. And he was saying, you know, a lot of a good chunk of your work as an academic is putting an opinion out there. He's like, "You need to be better about this." (laughter) And I don't think it's so much an opinion but worried, like, if that opinion is going to hurt someone's feelings or something like that.

THERAPIST: What happens when you hurt someone's feelings?

CLIENT: That I make them feel bad, you know. I think that's what I'm most worried about. [00:16:37]

THERAPIST: Have you ever done that?

CLIENT: I'm sure I have, yeah. Nothing's, like, jumping into my head now but, I mean, I know I've hurt people's feelings, yeah.

THERAPIST: I think we all how can you avoid it sometimes? But nothing stands out for you as a time when you said something that ended up hurting someone's feelings, whether it was intended to be hurtful or not, and getting a really bad reaction from it?

CLIENT: I think it was maybe last year in Jeff's class, a class I'm a teaching fellow for in the fall. We always read this article every year about these kids who have, like, some major, like, behavioral disabilities. And in our teaching team meeting Jeff used a phrase, like, that the environmental factors have really damaged these kids. And I was using I may have even told you about this. It was a long time ago. But I was...

THERAPIST: It's sounding a little bit familiar (inaudible at 17:35)

CLIENT: And so I was the TF who was kind of presenting the article and leading the discussion and one of the things Jeff kept saying was, like, that the environment was damaging these kids. And so I used that phrase. And it was a phrase he had used but I think he had used a phrase, like, that these kids were damaged by the environment, but I said that these kids were damaged, which is something, like, I would never say but I was wanting to use the language that Jeff was using. And so I said that phrase in class and one of the students in class picked up on that and said, "How can we ever say that kids with disabilities are damaged?" Which is, like, something I would never say. And both my parents are special educators. Like, my sister and I have been raised on this idea of, like, you don't perceive disability in that way.

And that was, like, I felt awful that I had said that but it was, like, this misunderstanding of me trying to get the message across that Jeff was saying, but when he says it it's a little bit different than when a TF says it. And so I think a lot of the students in that class just kind of I don't know if I necessarily well, I think I did hurt some of their feelings, but…. [00:18:48]

THERAPIST: There's a nuance between an environment that damages something and someone being damaged, like as a difference between sort of a verb and an adjective.

CLIENT: And so I think I did hurt some because there are lots of students in our class who have disabilities themselves. So if they ever perceived it as, like, that they are on disability (inaudible at 19:07) or that they are damaged. But I just felt, like, awful about that because it was something that I feel like I'm such an advocate for language around people with disabilities and then for me to kind of say something that was offensive top people was just so not me. Like, I feel like I'm always on the opposite side of the fence, like, yelling at people when they said the word retard or something it's, like, a swear word to me, you know. So it was just that was definitely a bad experience.

THERAPIST: And I get the sense that you felt ashamed.

CLIENT: Yeah, definitely.

THERAPIST: And that's a really hard feeling to sit with because you feel so disappointed in yourself. Is that similar to maybe not to the same degree, but I'm wondering if that's similar to how you felt when you realized that you made this comment about, you know, the group of students you were concerned about and it might have been recorded.

CLIENT: Yeah, because I think if they had ever heard it I think I was also going over in my head, like, first, what are the chances that it was even caught on tape? And then, secondly, I don't think any of our students actually go and view the videos, so what are the chances that someone even saw it? But I think if one of the students in that group did and knew that one of, like, that I as a member of the teaching team was like, "Oh, I need to meet with that group," like, that that would definitely hurt their feelings too. [00:20:27]

THERAPIST: So there's two sides of it. There's the side of worrying about how someone else might feel in reaction. And then even if nobody had never, ever found out about it, the fact that you feel a little bit ashamed that you said it aloud.

CLIENT: Yeah, and I feel like I'm always, like, I try to be really good about not, I mean, obviously not saying things like that, but especially not, like, putting things like that in an e-mail. Like, if it is something sensitive that I would need to tell the teaching team about, like, I would say it in our meeting. I wouldn't put it in an e-mail or have it just, like, I would never want to worry about it getting out, you know.

THERAPIST: Well, you're trying to be really careful, but you can't be perfect.

CLIENT: No, I definitely can't. I can't be perfect. (laughter) And I think it was almost, like, my defenses were down, that I finally got that sense of relief, not having to worry about Ryan's.

THERAPIST: And you got, for your own standards, a little bit careless, which I think your standards for yourself are pretty high. I don't think I would describe you ever as a careless person but in that moment some of the tight reign that you keep over yourself, in how you present yourself and your ideas, you relaxed a little bit. [00:21:53]

CLIENT: Yeah, and it's hard because, like, with the teaching team I feel like we can talk, like, honestly about students. Like, we were more worried about that team.

THERAPIST: There's nothing wrong with well, [I can sense another piece] (ph) is that there's nothing wrong with having concern about a group of students or their work. That's part of your job, is to figure out which students do you need to be concerned about.

CLIENT: It was, like, could it have been kind of even now. Like, I don't think it's posted yet. I want to go on and make sure it isn't and if it is I can take it off. So I feel like that in that sense it's not really sometimes I have those worries that I know are, like, that totally don't make sense. And in this case I don't think that's totally the case but I let myself think about it too much.

THERAPIST: So letting yourself so this is a case where it makes sense to think about, OK, here's the worry. My worry is that this comment I made could be over heard by someone that isn't the intended audience. And the other piece of it is, was it wrong of me to make the comment? And I think as you talk about it you've answered it, that no it's not really wrong for you to have made the comment. If you the wrong person ever heard it, it could be hurtful to them. So there is something you can do. I mean, if it's possible for you to check the tape and find out whether the comment's out there, you can do that and put it away. And letting yourself, you know, letting yourself accept that, yeah, you made this comment and it was an OK comment to make and not having to carry around a feeling of guilt or shame about that. [00:23:30]

CLIENT: But I think it is interesting how it's, like, a lot of the worries have, like, that same theme of wondering, like, "Oh, did I hurt someone else's feelings by that?"

THERAPIST: And how careful do you really need to be around (ph) that. Are you setting the bar maybe a little bit too high?

CLIENT: Yeah, because there are times when I check in with Todd and say, like, "Do you think that" like, it was just recently. I can't even oh, when we were in Arizona. And Todd's most lost her mom when she was younger. My friend Stephanie lost her mom and I was kind of sharing a story about that. And then that night I said to Todd, I'm like, "Do you think I hurt your mom's feelings, like, kind of bringing all of that up?" And he's like, "No, that's crazy. Like, she wants to be able to talk about, like, her experience." I don't even remember the details but it is things like that.

THERAPIST: But you said hurt your mom's feelings and I think what you really meant was make your mom sad.

CLIENT: That's true, I could have, yeah.

THERAPIST: That's different and hurting someone's feelings when I think about hurting someone's feelings it makes me think of saying something that's hurtful. There's a difference between bringing up a subject about which someone might be sad. And so, you know, I can imagine that, yeah, you know, maybe Todd's mom does still feel sadness at, you know, the lost of her mom at a younger age. But you're not responsible for those feelings and it's OK for people to be sad sometimes. [00:25:05]

And this conversation is making me think about a conversation we had a while back. When a student had I don't know if it was one of your students or a peer but you were doing feedback on a paper and you had said you would get it back by a certain date and then the date actually went by. You couldn't get the feedback back to them in time and you were really worried about how if the person would be upset or if they would be angry with you. And it's this feeling of responsibility you have for other people's feelings. Like, that and hurting someone is getting kind of intermixed.

CLIENT: Now I can't even remember (laughter), so I guess that's a good thing.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I don't think the particular event was that important. It was the underlying feeling of kind of not wanting to be responsible for anybody having a reaction. And people do react to things and people will react to you and you're not responsible for somebody else's reactions. [00:26:12]

CLIENT: Yeah, but it's almost like sometimes I try to take on the responsibility [of that] (ph).

THERAPIST: I think even the example about Todd's mom I think fits that really nicely, that you can't orchestrate every conversation perfectly so that nobody has a reaction to it. And you shouldn't feel like you need to. I just used a should on tape. (laughter)

CLIENT: And I guess it's, I mean, being a teaching fellow, like, in this, you know, kind of role I guess maybe I feel like I am more aware of, like, what I am saying just because there are it's different for me. I think now it's getting better.

THERAPIST: You have a role of responsibility here (ph). That makes sense that you do feel some responsibility for what you present.

CLIENT: Right. And it was always weird. Like, earlier in the doctorate program I also felt about it just because I was, like, the same as them, just taking classes. Like, sometimes I would be a TF for a student who I was in another class with, so it was kind of, like, a weird dynamic.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 27:18)

CLIENT: Yeah. But now it's getting better because I'm moving on in the program.

THERAPIST: Yeah, that always is, those kind of overlapping roles is always a little bit complicated.

CLIENT: But I also think it's good for me, like, as a teacher too, you know. Like, I was a middle school teacher in charge of a classroom of 25 students who I could, you know, influence and say something that might hurt their feelings too. Like, If I'm so committed to education or maybe even thinking what I want to teach at the higher ed level or not sure what I would want to do, like, this is something I need to get used to too. So I guess that's good practice, to know that I don't need to take responsibility for every reaction too.

THERAPIST: So figuring out, like, what are you responsible for, and what are you not responsible for, and then what do you do with the consequences. So, you know, you might present something that someone has a strong reaction to and your role there isn't figuring out if there are hurt feelings or if there is some intense emotional reaction to the material that you present or, you know, somebody misunderstands the intention behind what you are saying. There's an opportunity there for real conversation about, well, OK, like, acknowledging what's happened, figuring out what do you do with those feelings. You know, what if Todd's mom was really sad? That can be an opportunity for a real connection. [00:28:57]

CLIENT: In that case too, I think, like, we've talked about her she actually bought her mom up, like, a couple of days later too. So I think, in a way, that was and Todd said the same thing, that she enjoys talking about her.

THERAPIST: I wonder what would have happened if you had asked Todd's mom instead of asking Todd. Would you feel comfortable saying, like, you know, "I realize I bought this up and I'm wondering how that felt for you"?

CLIENT: Yeah. I almost did because I do feel like we have a good relationship and I almost did bring it up with her and I kind of, like, followed up. Because the whole thing was when we were in Arizona my friend Stephanie was also in Arizona and we both have no sense of geography and we thought we were a lot closer and that we could see each other but we didn't.

THERAPIST: [Well you used to live there, right] (ph)?

CLIENT: Yeah. (laughter) So I had no idea. But they were in Arizona because her dad was getting remarried. So it was, like, this really, really hard time for her. So Todd's mom knew that she was also down there. And so I bought it up. We were thinking that Stephanie might be able to come to Todd's parents' house and it just didn't work out because there wasn't enough time.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 30:15)

CLIENT: Exactly. Getting all the way across took a little bit longer than we thought. (laughter) So it was kind of coming up because Jen knows Stephanie and was asking how she was doing. And so I did kind of say it was almost like I wanted to, like, smooth it over and make sure she was OK with it. And I think I said something like, "It would be great for you two to talk. Like, I know you would have so much to share with her," or something. I felt like I wanted to make sure I kind of acknowledged it.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 30:42)

CLIENT: Yeah. But I didn't even think. Like, I think I would comfortable to say, like, "Oh, I hope I didn't hurt your feelings the other night," and then put it in that way. Like, "I know you and Stephanie would have a lot to talk about." So I think I could, I mean, if that ever happened in the future. I feel like we have a good enough relationship too where I would feel comfortable asking her about that too.

THERAPIST: Just the ability, you know, not just in that situation but bringing it to the broader context, the ability rather than, you know, checking in with a third party about what they think may have happened or not happened, allowing yourself to have direct communication with people.

CLIENT: Just ask, yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, sometimes it's about trusting yourself and other times it might be acknowledging with the other person. It gives you a more direct way of relating to people.

CLIENT: Yeah, I think that's good and I think I'm, for the most part, I think I would be direct and ask people. But maybe there are some instances where I don't -

THERAPIST: You tend to shy away [from it] (ph).

CLIENT: and just like, yeah, wonder instead. (laughter)

THERAPIST: And it leaves that unclosed loop. So that's something to remember too.

CLIENT: I know I do that more, like, especially with Todd. "I didn't, like, hurt your feelings?" You know, I feel like with my family I'm really good about, like, double-checking.

THERAPIST: Yeah, you feel really (ph) safe there.

CLIENT: Yeah, but that might be something (ph)… [00:32:19]

THERAPIST: How often do you worry about it? They say, "No (ph), you're crazy. What are you talking about?"

CLIENT: Yeah, pretty much always. (laughter)

THERAPIST: Interesting.

CLIENT: I know, I know. Or that they'll be like, "I didn't even think about that."

THERAPIST: So you're noticing a lot more than they are.

CLIENT: Yeah, I think so. Just wanting to make sure, you know, that something wasn't said that…

THERAPIST: So I wonder what it is that makes you think that people are hurt and not telling you, right? Because when you check in (ph) it's because you imagine that they might be hurt and haven't expressed it to you. I wonder if maybe people would let you know if they were hurt.

CLIENT: Right, I think they probably would (laughter) instead of me having to wonder. And for the most part I think my family and Todd are pretty good about letting me know. (laughter)

THERAPIST: Yeah, so you don't if it's not there, you don't need to worry about it.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's true.

THERAPIST: And that may be true of others too. [00:33:20]

CLIENT: Yeah, to just kind of put more faith in the fact that people will probably come to me. I don't need to be so worried.

THERAPIST: If somebody were upset, they would let you know. If not directly at least indirectly. Sometimes we signal from someone that can give us a clue they've been hurt.

CLIENT: I don't feel like those two things, like, kind of took over the week either. Like, it was nice. But it has been it was something that was on my mind. I feel like I saw myself doing it. It was like, yeah, as soon as -

THERAPIST: It was like I'm (ph) filling that space.

CLIENT: Yeah. It was like I was walking out of Ryan's office being like, "Oh, I'm so relieved," but then thinking, "But I need to check that video." (laughter)

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 34:09) pretty immediate to not let yourself kind of just exist in that space. It's relief and calm.

CLIENT: But otherwise I feel like it has been nice to kind of feel that feeling of calm, just not being so busy. So that part has been good.

THERAPIST: I'm glad that's been. You want to take a few minutes to be calm now (ph)?

CLIENT: Sure, yes.

THERAPIST: I know since you had the Arizona imagery, last time we tried that. Would you like to do that again (ph)?

CLIENT: Sure, yeah. That was nice. They were definitely wishing that [we were] (ph) back in 80 degrees.

THERAPIST: And when are we scheduled to meet?

CLIENT: So I think (inaudible at 34:48) we'll be back on -

THERAPIST: Our typical schedule?

CLIENT: Yeah. Oh, and I have cash for you today because I forgot my checkbook.

THERAPIST: I do have you on the every other week. So I have you on the 19th at this time.

CLIENT: Great.

THERAPIST: And then we didn't schedule for April but we can.

CLIENT: Wow. And then the 19th and then Trae turns one.

THERAPIST: Oh my goodness.

CLIENT: I know.

THERAPIST: Wow, that went really fast for me. (laughter)

CLIENT: Yeah, it's been, like, the slowest but fastest year. (laughter)

THERAPIST: Yeah, you kind of have that sometimes it seems I read once that when you're a parent the days go by very slowly but the years go by very quickly.

CLIENT: Yeah, definitely.

THERAPIST: I don't know who to attribute that to. It's not my own. I just remember [it somewhere] (ph). So it looks like I messed up a little bit. And so we meet the 19th and if we did the every other week it would be on April 2nd, but I put somebody in your 2:30 spot by accident. So I have 3:30.

CLIENT: That's fine. Anytime in the afternoon because it's hard for my mom to get here really early on Tuesday, but anytime.

THERAPIST: So we just move to 3:30 on the 2nd and then on April 16th, which would be two weeks after that, you can have your 2:30 back.

CLIENT: OK. And 3:30 would be fine too if…

THERAPIST: I don't think it matters. I think that's random, that that person is there. That's not usually (inaudible at 36:22). (laughter) So it must be once in a while someone moves because of another appointment.

CLIENT: So that would be the 16th at 2:30?

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) Do you need change or is that right (ph)?

CLIENT: That's correct change and everything.

THERAPIST: Great. All right, so let yourself get comfortable. Close your eyes. Let yourself fall into a pattern of breathing that feels relaxed and full. Using your breath to scan your body, noticing places where you might be holding on to some tension. Just allowing yourself to let go of it as you exhale, letting yourself become a little bit more relaxed with each breath. [00:37:27]

Also using that same breath to notice the thoughts that are going on in your head. Acknowledge the thoughts that are there and then allow yourself to let go of them as you exhale, letting them float away, knowing that important thoughts will come back to you when you need them. Allow that space in your head to be filled with a soothing image. Letting yourself feel the way you feel if you were there. Letting your head fill with the sounds that would be present. Letting yourself feel the warm that would be on your skin. Just relax into that place. [00:38:57]

Almost as if your body is memorizing the details of being calm and relaxed. Feeling at peace. Continuing to breathe at a full, relaxed pace. Acknowledging that it's hard to stay there and (ph) letting yourself return to that place of relaxation after you've drifted away. Noticing anytime that tension might creep back into your body. Notice it without any judgment and then let go of it as you breathe out. [00:40:07]

Notice that your breath might elongate as you relax, taking fuller, deeper breathers. Just following that natural pattern. Allow yourself to count out five full deep breaths at your own pace.

(silence)

(inaudible at 41:15) to the way that you feel when you let yourself be in this space. Whenever you feel ready, letting yourself carry that feeling back to the room with you.

All right, so hold on to that.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: And I will see you in a couple weeks.

CLIENT: Good. Hopefully you're better by then.

THERAPIST: Thank you.

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