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CLIENT: So I am officially the mom of a two year old now.

THERAPIST: Congratulations to both of you.

CLIENT: Yeah. Trae’s birthday was on Saturday, so it was a fun celebration over the weekend and it’s still so crazy, like I think I remember saying the last time to you, ‘I don’t feel so emotional as the first birthday,’ and then I didn’t up until the night before his birthday and I was reading him a bedtime story and getting like all teary and it is just seeing him one year older and it’s just crazy to think of him as this little tiny baby and now he’s just a toddler running around and so –

THERAPIST: Quite a lot of change.

CLIENT: Yeah but it was such a nice weekend and then it was nice it fell on a Saturday too that we were able to have the whole day. Todd’s family are down in Arizona but my family came for a little celebration for him like for a little dinner/birthday party, so it was a nice day. My grandmother came, my sister and her fiancé.

THERAPIST: It was nice to recognize it with so many important people.

CLIENT: Yeah. And then we’re going to do a little kid party this weekend too. So the fun will continue. So it was good though. And it was nice that Trae planned it perfectly because his birthday usually falls during spring break so it’s perfect. Not that that’s much of a break for us but it’s good timing.

THERAPIST: It will work for an academic family.

CLIENT: I know. That was a nice weekend to just focus on him. It’s funny now that he’s so aware of everything, too. He kept saying, ‘birthday party, birthday party, and cake and ice cream’. So it as fun.

THERAPIST: Yeah, very different from a year ago when he had no clue what was going on.

CLIENT: Yeah, I went back and was like digging out pictures we’d taken from his first birthday party to hang up and it’s just crazy to see the difference even from that. I kept thinking, ‘he’s so old’ when he turned one.

THERAPIST: He was no longer an infant anymore.

CLIENT: Exactly. So it was fun and I’m glad we still have – and this weekend we waited to his actual party until this weekend because Todd’s mom is going to fly up from Arizona so she can be here to celebrate and everything, too. So I think that will be good.

THERAPIST: I remember last year for you trying to figure out how to accommodate what you wanted, what family members wanted. It was hard to just sort of start deciding what those traditions were going to be.

CLIENT: I know. It was really hard and I think it just kind of resolved itself this year because the way it fell on a weekend and that Todd’s mom wasn’t thinking of coming until the following weekend. Because my family just had very specific traditions that we would do for each other’s birthdays and I think like Todd really gets excited to celebrate a birthday but there were little things that I’d taught him about celebrating birthdays like my mom would always have like stuffed animals lined up in our room with birthday hats on them when we’d wake up and so now even Todd will do that for my birthday which is very cute. I just think little things like that and that the actual day really means so much and I think – you know with other holidays too, sometimes that’s not exactly the same with Todd’s family and it was so hard – I was so glad Todd’s parents came for Trae’s birthday last year but it did feel so hard that they were staying with us and it just felt like it became like everyone’s day to celebrate him and I just wanted that time of just us, you know? So, thankfully, it all – we didn’t have to worry about that this year, yeah, and that we had like our time as a little family of three, in the morning, and then we actually had a friend’s birthday – he has a little friend who is two days younger than him so her party was on Saturday so we went to that and then my family came for dinner. So it just was like a nice mix of everything and then Todd’s mom will be staying with us next weekend but that feels like perfect timing, you know, that I don’t feel – It was weird like I got this protective, like territorial kind of thing over his first birthday that I just wanted to make sure we had – I didn’t want to like have the entire day. I felt like -

THERAPIST: You needed protected time.

CLIENT: And so this was nice without having to feel like we had to kind of negotiate and make sure because we did get that time last year because Todd and I took Trae to the library and his parents stayed at our place and we went out to lunch – I don’t remember exactly what happened, but we got him. But it took like –

THERAPIST: But it took like confronting the conflict.

CLIENT: Yeah. So I think it is. Because I don’t think that even would have occurred to Todd’s mom like oh are we kind of invading space? Because they just think of birthdays differently and I think it was important for them and they wanted to be there to celebrate and they were thinking, oh, this is great, we get to be there on the actual day. But for me I was like, oh, we want to make sure we have a piece of that to ourselves. So it felt good that it all kind of worked out this year and so I guess we just – and I think now that we know that felt good that we can kind of use that going forward, too. So we’ll see. But I think it’s hard – I think it’s been especially hard for Todd’s mom. I think it’s hard for both of his parents. But they love their decision to be down in Arizona but I think it has been hard for them just to be away and so we’re so lucky that they want that and that they want to be with Trae and want to be here to celebrate. His mom is flying just for his little birthday party in the library. So that’s just so good to remember, but sometimes it gets hard because I think they’re like creating time with him. So I’m glad that it all worked out for this year.

THERAPIST: What were you noticing as you got emotional the night before. What was it that was hitting you?

CLIENT: Well usually we’ll read stories and Todd would come in and read stories, then I usually get him – Todd will go back and finish cooking dinner or something and I’ll sing to him and I’ll hold him. He loves to sing Rock-a-bye Baby and it’s so funny and he’ll, instead of baby he’ll say rock-a-bye to all the things that he loves like he’ll say rock-a-bye truck. Silly things that are on his mind. And so I’m just holding him like that. You know, like you’re this big toddler now. And like we have little songs that we sing. And for him to like ask, ‘song, song?’ Because he wants to be sung to but now it was just like –

THERAPIST: All structured. It struck you how different it is.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I didn’t anticipate that at all and Todd was out with some friends and I’m texting him like, ‘I just go so emotional.’ I don’t think he noticed it, but Todd’s like, ‘what’s wrong with Mom?’ So but that’s another thing. Todd was out having some beers with friends, like I don’t think they’re quite (unclear) in the same way.

THERAPIST: The day has been very meaningful to you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Those particular dates whereas the date doesn’t have the same kind of significance that it does for you. It’s just a meaning that you’ve attached to it all these years.

CLIENT: And it’s funny. I think Todd is getting that more and even picking up on the little traditions. Like I didn’t even have to say anything and he went out and put Trae’s animals out with their birthday hats before we were going to bed. So it’s cute that he’s picking up – he’s adopting, sort of internalized some of the family traditions that you brought from your family.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And that they have certain traditions in Todd’s family too that we were able to start doing too which has been fun. So it’s neat to kind of be able to kind of incorporate it all into our –

THERAPIST: How you all blend it and how you take from each other and how you blend it together and have it be your own tradition.

CLIENT: Yeah. So I feel like that was like this good part of it, of the weekend. And I found out I got accepted to the Board of the Brown Ed Review.

THERAPIST: Congratulations.

CLIENT: Thank you. Which like –

THERAPIST: How do you feel about it?

CLIENT: I feel so mixed. And it’s funny because when I’m talking about it I’m kind of talking about it like oh, I am going to do it because we have to respond whether or not we’re accepting the invitation on like April 6th or something. So we have some time, but when I talked to like Ryan and Jeff, two people who wrote my recommendations, I was talking as if I was going to – and they were assuming I would say yes and I was kind of talking as if I was saying yes, but there is still like –

THERAPIST: Let’s talk out all of what you’re feeling.

CLIENT: I’m feeling so torn like I feel it would be – like there’s lots of like good things about it and I think we talked about some of it, but just feeling like there’s tons to learn and I think it will be such a good opportunity for me to, as I’m kind of my own research, to be exposed to all these other articles that are being submitted and reading all these good models and then some my friends who are on the board now are saying, not so good models, not to do, but it’s like work that comes at a good time in our process too of being exposed to all these different ways of showing up methods and things like that. And just that feeling of I feel like now that our course work phase is done that our whole cohort just feels so disbursed. Yeah. And I feel like when I get on campus and know that Trae’s at day care, I just run to my office and shut the door and try to get as much work done as I can. I’ll meet friends for coffee, too. I feel like I have been better about that where I wasn’t even wanting to do that last year. But I feel like I just try to be as productive as I can during like weekdays on campus –

THERAPIST: And efficiency sometimes means isolation.

CLIENT: Yeah. So it does start to feel kind of lonely. And I have a writing group and you know, certain friends I meet up with consistently, too, but I think being a part of that group would also have a nice feeling of community that I kind of feel is lost because we’re all in different places now. So I feel like there is so much good that would come of it. But then I feel like there is there is different stuff, you know, stuff thinking about like from a family perspective like that’s kind of making me hesitant thinking that now it’s a two year commitment – every Thursday night and so that’s every Thursday night I’ll be missing Trae’s bedtime and making – and it’s also now kind of a family decision that it’s impacting Todd, that he usually teaches on Thursday like in the spring on Thursday. And so he would kind of need to rework his teaching schedule which he thinks he’s be able to do. But that that is kind of like – it just feels like a family decision than a decision for me to make.

THERAPIST: If it was just you – and I know it’s not – but if it was just you do you know what you would do?

CLIENT: I think I would do it. Yeah. But I think I would still – so there is like the whole family dynamic of it feeling like this needs to be a family decision but also like even if it was just me I’m also kind of second guessing the timing of my doing it. Hopefully, these are the last two years because my program is an average of six and this is my fourth year. So I also don’t know if it’s just like too much to try and take on like the last two years of this like sprint of trying to collect your data and write your dissertation which is probably the hardest part of your program and also to have this on top of it in the last two years. So the timing is just kind of worrying me. And I’m thinking, now Trae’s two and Todd and I are both feeling like well maybe we feel more ready than we thought for another baby so that I’m thinking, so now for my last two years do I want to finish the dissertation, be on the BBC and have a baby in those two years, too? So, and it all can be done so luckily I have a bunch of friends who are on the board. One of my friends from my cohort who is on the board now and pregnant and due in September and I have friends who have served on the board before and had a baby during their time. So I know that it works and I’ve talked to them and they have said it is still totally worth it and pretty much everyone who I have talked to have said it’s a ton of work but that everyone has felt like it’s been worth it. So I feel like it can be done and I also feel like if having a baby during this time is my worry like that shouldn’t be – like it’s 2014, like we should figure out – like they can be flexible too, like that shouldn’t deter me from taking this on if I’m worried that I wouldn’t get enough of a stretch off. And other board members have kind of reassured me about that that they can be flexible on that.

THERAPIST: How much – so the meetings are every Thursday.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: How many hours of work are there in between meetings for you?

CLIENT: I mean they are kind of saying it’s a (unclear) a TF position and so because the two TF positions I have are pretty work-intensive, because some people even describe it as even more than a hard TF slot, but I kind of feel like that’s what I have. Like I’ve had tons of TF slots. Not that they’re aren’t other people who do too but I just think that the ones I’ve had have been really time-intensive. But then that’s another piece to it too, that I feel like that if I were to do it even just thinking not even two years, but just next all, what it would be like. I also feel really hesitant to continue as a TF, because then I feel there is even more on top of it. But then I have this like weird, especially with my advisor, like he gets very territorial of his TFs and we always kind of joke that it’s hard to break free. Like you feel like an indentured servant, you know. And that’s like even though if you’re kind of feeling like oh I don’t really want to do this this year, it’s hard to say no. Especially with the structure at our school, you’re usually TF’ing for your advisor and so it makes for like a kind of funny dynamic in the relationship. [00:15:15]

THERAPIST: A lot of dual relationships going on.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I think there are a lot of great qualities about my advisor but I feel like sometimes he can kind of be like a little petty, you know, like it is something he could be a little annoyed about if I said I didn’t want to TF in the fall. And so then that worries me like this is the time when I’m going to be relying on him the most with help getting data collection and writing a dissertation and is now the time I want to sever my tie with him for his course? So it just feels like there’s kind of a lot of things up in the air, like so many good things that come with it but also so many things that I am worried about that would come along with it. And I keep thinking back to the course that I took my first year, that statistics course that was so hard and like triggered all this anxiety for me and that felt like a big decision like I remember like I wasn’t sure I should take it or not and there was an intro stats class that I kind of wanted to take but my advisor said, ‘oh, it’s so much better to take the class that I ended up taking because you take it as a whole cohort and then you go through it together and then if we’re really encouraging all the first year doctoral students to take that course it’s kind of designed for you so I feel like I kind of got talked into deciding on that and looking back on it there was no need for me to take that when I did. Like it would have been fine if I’d taken the internal one because we’re all at different points now. So it was silly to say that it was so good to start as a cohort. So I’m just thinking back to that. That felt like a big decision to me and this feels like another big program-affiliated –

THERAPIST: So they’re both big decisions. You felt like you got talked into the stats thing. [00:17:05]

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Do you feel like you’re being talked into this thing?

CLIENT: No. Yeah, I don’t feel that. So that’s good. I think if I were to say no that my advisor (cross talk) –

THERAPIST: People would try to talk you into it? (Laughs)

CLIENT: Saying no to this? And I think a lot of my friends who are on the board have been really supportive and answering my questions and hoping that I’ll say yes, but I wouldn’t worry so much about disappointing them but I think I would worry just thinking like with my advisor, with Jeff and Ryan, they would kind of be like, ‘why are you passing up this opportunity?’ Because it is such a great thing but luckily I do still kind of feel like I have control over this decision where I feel I kind of let other people, just because I wasn’t sure what to do – looking back on it, because it was my very first week in the program, you know, so I wasn’t sure and my advisor said, ‘take it,’ so I took it. So this feels good that it definitely feels like –

THERAPIST: You certainly know a lot more about yourself and about what skills you want and what the trade-offs are of developing them.

CLIENT: Right. And on the one hand I feel like just talking to some of my friends they sounded like so confident about the skills that they’ve developed and I feel like that would be a good thing for me, like taking that confidence but then on then on the other hand I was like well then some of the work is a lot of responding to those who are submitting and giving feedback and like that’s some of the stuff that I really like to do as a TF but sometimes will get worried about how the students will respond to my feedback so on one hand I feel like oh, this will be good because I need to develop my confidence in that area but on the other hand –

THERAPIST: But it will be challenging because you will be facing some of the things about which you are nervous.

CLIENT: Yeah, so it’s like targeting both ends, like that it would be good to develop confidence around that but also targeting that part –

THERAPIST: But the way to develop confidence is to do something over and over.

CLIENT: Yeah. So it feels like – I feel like Todd and I haven’t really had like – we’ve talked a lot about it but we haven’t had like that ‘let’s sit down and really talk this through.’ Because that’s another thing my friend said. “My husband hates the BBC.” (Laughs) “So make sure Todd’s on board.’ Just because they have – she’s pregnant with her third right now and he says, you know, that it’s a lot of work for him on Thursday nights and she said the only time he really hears about the BBC from me is when I’m complaining about all the work I have. So of course he sees it in a negative way.

THERAPIST: Right. But he doesn’t really get something out of it.

CLIENT: Right. Exactly.

THERAPIST: Which she does.

CLIENT: Yeah. And so I think it’s good that Todd – and her husband isn’t in this field at all. He’s in a totally different field. So Todd would more get the work and he gets that it’s a cool opportunity to be able to do it too. So that feels good that he’ll come from more of a place of understanding about it all.

THERAPIST: I mean it’s a big commitment.

CLIENT: Yeah. It’s funny that I feel like if it were just one year I think I would have already replied, ‘I’m on board,’ but two years.

THERAPIST: What is it about that second year?

CLIENT: I think thinking about having another baby and that the last year would be like trying to finish my dissertation, so if it was just a year it would be in year five and maybe I would have like a baby at the end of it but I’d pretty much just be collecting data so it wouldn’t feel like such bad timing but thinking of it as two years –

THERAPIST: So it’s the thought that you’d have a newborn rather than be pregnant.

THERAPIST: And so what if doing the BBC thing meant that you extended grad school to the seventh year and finished your dissertation in your seventh year, how would that feel to you? [00:21:13]

CLIENT: I think that would feel okay especially now that I’m realizing how nice the flexibility of being a grad student is with kids. It’s been nice to be – like when Trae gets sick – it’s too bad I don’t get to get my own work done but it’s not like I – I might have to stay home with him, but it’s not like I have all these like meetings that I’m cancelling. Sometimes there are meetings that I have scheduled but a lot of it now is just individual work like working on my own research. So just that flexibility is so nice or that my mom doesn’t come until 11 on Tuesdays and that I can just be home with him that day and have all Thursday home with him. So I think that flexibility will be even better once we have two kids. I think it’s more just the financial aspect of it –

THERAPIST: Right. That seventh year.

CLIENT: Not having a salary. And then there’s this rumor – I don’t know if it’s true, that after your fifth year you have to pay a little bit of the tuition cost if you stay which I think it’s like – comparatively – like a couple of thousand dollars. It’s not like it’s this big chunk like they pay for. Even that’s still like a lot of money. And then I’m thinking, the more I stay like I’m not making a salary that I could be making and I’m having to pay that couple of thousand dollars to keep going. So just that financial aspect I think is the biggest thing and I think Todd would say that too because I’m making money as a TF and I get thankfully, a scholarship too but it doesn’t come in this year. It will come back in year five and then it’s gone. So it’s just been like, thankfully, Todd has a job that we can depend on. With the money I’m bringing in too it’s been fine but we don’t feel like we are able to save as much and if we did want to move we definitely feel like I need to have a job before we could do that. So it just feels like the financial aspect of not finishing in year six I think would be the only drawback. [00:23:21]

Because it’s nice that I definitely don’t feel like a competitive edge with my cohort or anything like and I don’t think a lot of people feel that. Like that is kind of between year five and year like nine that people graduate. So it’s not like people graduate as a cohort. So that part doesn’t really bother me either like I’m just focused on graduating whenever it will be. I don’t care if it’s with a certain set of people or whatever.

THERAPIST: So it sounds like in having a conversation with Todd the main things to think about are do you want to take it, do you want to take it with the idea that you would finish in two years, or do you want to take it and think about it as finishing in three years so that some of that pressure is off and looking at the finances and what would seven years versus six years mean? Is it worth it? Is what you’d gain from giving yourself a more extended schedule worth another year of not having the kind of salary you’d have if you graduated?

CLIENT: Right. And I think like, it’s funny because I haven’t even really thought about this, just saying I’ll give myself another year. And I think that would help even if we did have a newborn then it’s more time – that’s another year of flexibility instead of a first year like a real job where you are. It’s nice that I just don’t feel like I have to be there at a certain time and that I have to leave at a certain time. And it would definitely feel that way once I get a job. So yeah, I think it’s just – because Todd tries not to like put pressure on me about our finances and stuff but I know that it worries both of us that it’s not the best situation to just like have one salary coming in, especially if we want a second baby and we’re fine and luckily we’re able – we have a chunk of savings that we can dig into, you know, like if something went wrong, but it’s still like a weird feeling for me to feel like I’m not really contributing that much. That it is pretty much like Todd’s salary that we’re (cross talk).

THERAPIST: (Unclear).

CLIENT: Yeah. Exactly. And it was reversed too when Todd was in grad school, I was working. So we’ve really been flipping and flopping, yeah. I think there’s been one year where we’ve overlapped both with a job and we’ve known each other for ten years. [00:25:43]

THERAPIST: (Laughs)

CLIENT: So once I do have a job we’re not going to know what to do with ourselves. Two salaries. But that part just feels – I don’t know. Like it does feel like I wish that I were able to contribute financially more to like our family than I am able to as a TF and doing like a couple of side consulting jobs and stuff. So I think that that would only be like the biggest (unclear). [00:26:27]

THERAPIST: Yeah, that would be the only drawback really.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: If you had the three year timeline instead of a two year timeline.

CLIENT: Yeah. And it is nice though that it’s not that I have to commit to graduating in six years or seven years. Like I could just kind of see how even next year goes or even the sixth year goes.

THERAPIST: I mean the big “if” is – I mean if you think about wanting to have a second child you don’t actually know exactly when that child might arrive and you’ll get clues, obviously, but what if – it could be that you try for a longer time. I know Trae kind of happened fast but you don’t know necessarily what’s going to happen, so it would just be an option.

CLIENT: Right. I know when I – Todd jokes with me because I feel like in my head I have this perfect timeline like we can start trying now and I’ll have the baby after I finish collecting data. And he’s like, ‘remember – either the baby could come in the middle of data collection or the other side, like we could end up having to try for a long time and that happened to a couple of my friends where they got pregnant right off the bat with their first one and now were all like of that might not happen the second time around and –

THERAPIST: I mean, you just don’t know. It could – it could not.

CLIENT: Yeah. So that part is like the part you kind of don’t know about.

THERAPIST: Right. You might end up having to – you might plan on one thing and then realize okay, so this is never happening again.

CLIENT: Yeah. Right. Which I think, like luckily, that will be – it will be fine, you know? That given the flexibility of my schedule that –

THERAPIST: And the flexibility that you can give yourself to do it in two years or three years, seeing what might work and what are the different things that you might be juggling? Are you going to be juggling pregnancy? Are you going to be juggling an infant? You know –

CLIENT: Yeah. I think that’s probably part of the two year commitment – is that it’s just so hard to know what –

THERAPIST: It could look really different.

CLIENT: Like what our family could look like in two or three years by the end of this and so it’s hard to envision. At least with a year you think like that’s a little easier to anticipate what could be at the end of one year from now, but from two years – like you don’t. But I do catch myself talking about it as if I’m accepting and I wonder if it’s just because it’s in some way that I don’t want to get into all the dynamics that are going on in my head of the pros and cons. And it’s just easier to say like, ‘oh, yeah, I’m pretty sure.’ Or if that really is me saying I really want to do it.

THERAPIST: Because that’s how you feel.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Well, if you imagine yourself saying no, what’s your gut response, your immediate reaction?

CLIENT: That I just passed up an opportunity and I don’t want to say no because I am worried that it will make me worry. That’s not a reason to say no.

THERAPIST: You don’t want to miss out on it for fear and anxiety.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because you’ve handled – you haven’t had the experience that that stats class brought on for years. That was years ago now.

CLIENT: Yeah. I know which is just so weird that I feel like it’s still just right there and this has – like that’s kind of the other thing is – this kind of recent stretch has just felt manageable, like there has been a lot of work and there have been phases where the work has made me feel anxious but it doesn’t – I don’t feel like I have so much work to do and no time to do it.

THERAPIST: It’s not been incapacitating.

CLIENT: Yeah. And so now it’s been like, oh this is nice (unclear). Now am I going to change that balance and make it feel like it’s over a little bit again? [00:30:13]

THERAPIST: Well, or would it feel that way? I wonder if like you’re anticipating that it would feel overloaded and that that would be a bad feeling. What if it isn’t? What if it isn’t? Like your schedule will be more structured and fuller. I won’t say fuller but there will be more things that are not in your control – things that are set for you. But what if that (unclear) doesn’t feel overwhelming?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It’s very possible that given the past three years you’ve had of really processing what that experience was like – building your coping skills, getting more confident in yourself, it’s very possible that those things allow you to take on and juggle these kinds of responsibilities in a way that doesn’t feel bad.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: It might feel busy.

CLIENT: Right, I know.

THERAPIST: But busy’s not necessarily bad.

CLIENT: Yeah. I almost feel like now that I want to talk to Todd and make sure he feels on board with it and I know that he does, but I want to be sure.

THERAPIST: You want to (unclear) again.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I almost feel like if I could find a way to bargain with my advisor and say like I do a half slot and not the full slot, because what has kind of happened like without his naming me as the head TF, I’ve kind of just assumed that role and it is a lot of work. I almost feel like at the least like I could not be the head TF and still take the full slot but not be the head person. But it’s hard because I feel like now it’s –

THERAPIST: Is there another person who has done it before that you would like to give the opportunity to?

CLIENT: Right. I know I mean there’s one – it was our first. She’s just a first year and it was our first year of TF’ing this course but she was wonderful and I know she would be great.

THERAPIST: And this would be her second year next year.

CLIENT: Yeah. She’s also – I think she might also get on the Board. She got accepted so I think she’s going to do it too. So I’m not sure what she’s thinking about in terms of TF’ing. But yeah, I was thinking of that saying that, well, I’m like moving along in the program. I could like mentor someone else. So just to see it that way. Because I don’t know – it’s just is tricky. I have a good friend who was a TF for Jeff and isn’t anymore. We joke that like she said it was like breaking up and she had to do so much preparation of when this was going to be my last year. But you do. I don’t know how they could change the structure but I think it puts grad students in a really hard position when you’re TF’ing for your advisor.

THERAPIST: Just because having that overlapping role of the dual –

CLIENT: And they do create –

THERAPIST: Strange boundary dynamics.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I think they’re kind of aware of it because I think they do like exit interviews when you finish and it comes up a lot but –

THERAPIST: Having that cross.

CLIENT: Yeah, there’s no way to kind of fix it. I don’t know. [00:33:07]

THERAPIST: How much of the time that you give to TF’ing is because that’s how much it requires? And how much of it is because you go a little bit above and beyond?

CLIENT: Yeah, I try to be better about going above and beyond last year because I know I do that too much. One of the things that I spend way too much time on is just giving students feedback because they feel like I’ll write it out and then I’ll read it over again kind of from their perspective just to be sure that I’m doing a good job of like starting with a strength and then talking about weaknesses and stuff like that like we do as teachers. So I think I go overboard in that, but not by much. It is just a time-intensive role.

THERAPIST: You’ve whittled it down to what you can.

CLIENT: But I think it is as a head TF. Because like my friend who also is going to be on HER, I think, was saying, ‘oh, it was so easy to TF Jeff’s class because you did it all.’ Like as the head TF you have these responsibilities that – or maybe it’s not necessarily as the head TF but I think I just assumed too much last year. But now that I’m seen as that person it’s hard to –

THERAPIST: Hard to (unclear) it back.

CLIENT: Yeah. But that’s one thing I feel like if I could figure out a way where something could give with that.

THERAPIST: Yeah. If you could find specific things that you did last year that you would like to hand off. That you could say that with the others I did this and this and this last year and this year I need somebody else to take on this part of it. If you could find ways to make it specific so that you could hand over one of your responsibilities or a set of tasks. I don’t know if it’s as separable.

CLIENT: Kind of. I think we could get creative and make it that way, but that I think, would really help. Because I think that like in September, hopefully, I’ll be starting to collect data at school. I think that will be a lot and then getting used to like getting – I think ETR actually would start in May. Which would be kind of nice to ease into it because the summer won’t be as busy. But then I don’t want to just have the fall be just like slammed with all this stuff. So I was able to have it –

THERAPIST: Be able to have it sequenced before you start something.

CLIENT: Yeah. So I think it means like a hard conversation. At least from my perspective it will feel awkward with my advisor with Jeff to figure out about the TF head role and –

THERAPIST: And you can dial that back a little.

CLIENT: Yeah. And not like say, ‘no, I don’t want to do it, but just to get creative. I want to do it but in a way that it leaves room for other things. Yeah. Especially because that course meets from 4 to 7 and so Trae doesn’t go to bed that early but I definitely wouldn’t want two nights where like I’m not really around for bedtime. Like we kind of planned it last fall where I would get home and we would just put him to bed a little bit later and that was fine.

THERAPIST: By next year he’s going to be going to bed a bit later.

CLIENT: (Laughs) Yeah. Oh, great!

THERAPIST: (Laughs) He’s really not going to get earlier.

CLIENT: Yeah. That’s true. But even that part like –

THERAPIST: Maybe for a short stretch when he gives up from his nap.

CLIENT: Yeah, thankfully, he still takes such a good nap. But Todd and I are waiting for –

THERAPIST: Oh you probably still have time.

CLIENT: Hopefully, yeah. So I think it will just mean kind of talking to him and figuring out how to be creative about it all. And I might reach out to my friend who was able to like sever the ties – get some advice from her because we always joke that she was kind of my mentor because she was kind of the head TF for him when I started. And she jokes that now she’s passed the torch onto me so if I can talk to her about how she did that –

THERAPIST: You can do it too.

CLIENT: Right. Yeah. But it’s just like – it feels tricky because it’s also – TF’ing for Jeff is my way to like stay connected to him because he’s like also someone who’s hard to get in touch with and that’s the time when I’m going to need him the most. [00:37:06]

THERAPIST: Right. So that’s a way that you’re going to guarantee that you get some face to face time.

CLIENT: Right. Yeah. So I think it will just mean having a conversation with him and –

THERAPIST: And really making decisions about what works for you and your family.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Whatever you decide, it’s an honor to have to be identified as someone whom they want. Being able to enjoy that piece of it separate from the pressure of having to make a decision, letting yourself feel good about the fact that they saw something really worthwhile in you.

CLIENT: Yeah. I know. It’s funny. Even when I got like – they just let us know it in an e-mail. And when I saw the e-mail I was excited but then I was like I don’t even know if I want them to send me this or not. But it was nice to just – it definitely feels good to be –

THERAPIST: Yeah. So give yourself some moments just to feel good that you got the offer.

CLIENT: Right. Yeah. And then it’s just trying to figure out what to do with the offer. But I do appreciate that they’ve given us kind of a (unclear) window.

THERAPIST: Given you some time to be able to let it sink in, sit with it and consider how it fits in with the other things that you have going on in your life.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I was. I’ve already talked with one friend. We talked last Friday who’s on the Board now. So it’s been nice in this time to –

THERAPIST: You have a good way to get a lot of really good information.

CLIENT: So I feel like the more information I can get the better decision I can make, too. So we’ll see.

THERAPIST: Well, it will be interesting to hear what you do.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: How have other things felt this week?

CLIENT: I think that’s been the biggest thing (unclear) of mine. But at the same time I’m trying to get this April 18th deadline – the deadline for my dissertation proposal to submit. So that’s kind of felt a little like just hectic getting that all ready. So the process is that I have to submit my draft to my advisor. Then he says I can send it to my committee. Then my committee needs to prove it and then you submitted on the April 18th day. So it’s like all of these steps it feels like to get to that submission date. But thankfully I handed it off to Jeff, my advisor, and he said it’s ready to give to my committee. So that’s at least one little step.

THERAPIST: It’s a big step.

CLIENT: So I found that out over the weekend. So now the rest of my committee has it.

THERAPIST: Yeah, so you’re moving along in your process.

CLIENT: Yeah. But I already like – the same kind of checking process, that I wanted to do with my QP to make sure that they all – when I got different feedback and made the changes, I wanted to let them all know. It’s kind of that I want to build time in for that process, too. And I don’t know if everybody does it.

THERAPIST: But do you recall what your response was when you did that – when you double checked each of them?

CLIENT: I already told you this was good – why are you even here?

THERAPIST: So, taking that information into account and incorporating that into your process, you may be able to eliminate that and feel comfortable that they don’t – they’re not expecting you to double check.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Learning from – you know part of the QP is about is kind of practice doing the research but also practicing with the dynamics of your committee.

CLIENT: Right, yeah. And thankfully my committee has all stayed the same so –

THERAPIST: You’ve done that test already.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: They all told you pretty much that it wasn’t necessary.

CLIENT: Right. I know. So that is one step that I could remove from the process if I need to. [00:41:01]

THERAPIST: I think I could (unclear) removing it even if you don’t need to. You don’t need to incorporate it. You already did that experiment.

CLIENT: Yeah. So it will be interesting to see everyone’s feedback now.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But it’s nice to know that Jeff thought it looked in good shape and then –

THERAPIST: Yeah. That’s a really good vote of confidence.

CLIENT: Right. And I’m interested because now, tomorrow, one of my committee members has this like feedback group and I submitted an early draft of my QP a couple of months ago and got like good but harsh feedback on that first round. So I did the same thing with this draft of my dissertation proposal. I’m going to get that feedback tomorrow. So it feels good knowing that Jeff thinks it’s in such good shape, but I’m kind of like getting myself ready for their feedback, too.

THERAPIST: Well, it sounds like you’re making really good use of the resources you have available.

CLIENT: I’ve been trying to, yeah. Because I knew I had kind of a tight time limit. I wasn’t even sure if I would be able to get it together for this April deadline so I’m just trying to take advantage of it all.

THERAPIST: Well good for you. It sounds like you really are.

CLIENT: Right now it’s feeling like it actually might happen. So we’ll see how everyone else’s feedback is. But, yeah. That part, too, has just kind of felt like just kind of up in the air like I know people have it and the process of getting it and sending it out just kind of felt rushed and I wanted to get it out as soon as I could and –

THERAPIST: And letting go of it is always hard.

CLIENT: Yeah. But at least the process because I kind of like let myself kind of think after I sent it out like am I going to worry about have I plagiarized? And there are certain parts from the QP that I was able to use in my dissertation proposal and then I’m thinking like, ‘is that bad?’ Can I plagiarize myself?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: No. Don’t worry about that.

THERAPIST: You cannot plagiarize your own thought. It’s still your thought.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You’re writing the paper. I don’t think you have to cite yourself.

CLIENT: Right. And I don’t even know if I – you can’t cite and unpublished article. So – but it’s nice. And then I thought well even if I want to worry about that it’s just a draft so even if there was anything there like it’s fine. So that kind of feels good, too, that you’re sending off drafts and drafts until it’s ready.

THERAPIST: It’s partially relying on other people to note things for you if you’ve left out something.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Well you had a busy couple of weeks.

CLIENT: It has felt busy, yeah.

THERAPIST: In all different areas of your life.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Well, why don’t we wrap it up there for today. I think we’re on for two weeks?

CLIENT: Good. Yeah, I just want to make sure I have it. It’s two weeks at the same time. Like I think I put it in my phone wrong.

THERAPIST: I’ll have to double check. I’m pretty sure I have us at 12:30 again.

CLIENT: Yeah, good. I had it at like one in the morning so I know that’s not right.

THERAPIST: No. I have boundaries. Yeah, so I have us at 12:30 on the 7th, and then for three weeks after that on the 28th and then again at 12:30 in the afternoon.

CLIENT: Good. In the afternoon. (Chuckles) Yeah, so then I’ll have made my decision by the next time I see you. So –

THERAPIST: Well, whatever you decide – I’ll be interested to hear.

CLIENT: Good. I have a check for you too.

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